Martz Chassis C1 front suspension
08-27-2007, 01:57 PM
#181
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Be it coilovers or coil springs, leaf springs, torsion bars, or whatever springs, the springs "support" the vehicle. The anti-sway bar limits or "controls" the amount of vehicle roll when cornering. Certainly stiffer springs will control roll more than softer springs, but roll will still occur. Besides, I hope the Martz springs are not "stiffer" than C1 springs. More roll, means more camber change, and less tire grip (at the front).
Bottom line is you will not find out until you drive it. But I for one prefer to have an anti-sway bar. I am sure you could add one later if needed. Just odd that they would not include it. Does the Meyer kit have one? TCI does. Here is an article on anti-sway bars:
http://www.answers.com/topic/anti-sway-bar
As for lining up the holes (with a drill), we had to do that on Bill's (wmf62) Vette, but his has been through a lot more than a "normal" Vette has seen. If your front end ever was in an accident, then that might explain it.
Plasticman
Bottom line is you will not find out until you drive it. But I for one prefer to have an anti-sway bar. I am sure you could add one later if needed. Just odd that they would not include it. Does the Meyer kit have one? TCI does. Here is an article on anti-sway bars:
http://www.answers.com/topic/anti-sway-bar
As for lining up the holes (with a drill), we had to do that on Bill's (wmf62) Vette, but his has been through a lot more than a "normal" Vette has seen. If your front end ever was in an accident, then that might explain it.
Plasticman
Last edited by Plasticman; 08-27-2007 at 02:21 PM.
08-27-2007, 01:58 PM
#182
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St. Jude Donor '07
Bob
hmmmm, i think he's a bit optimistic about the 'no sway bar needed' thing, especially if you've already got a rear bar. just about EVERYTHING nowadays has a sway bar; must be a reason for it.......
yes, the frame could have spread a bit; BUT the most important thing is making sure your wheelbase is the same, front to back, on each side of the car. put your bolts in the front holes on both sides, snug them up, and then measure from the centerline of the front axle to the center on the rear axle on both sides; then compare the #s.
the back holes not lining up is not that big a deal. the TCI crossmember only bolts in the front and welds in the rear. if you can't get the bolts in by using an alignment drift, AND the wheelbase is the same on each side; then you can just run a weld across the back edge.
Bill
hmmmm, i think he's a bit optimistic about the 'no sway bar needed' thing, especially if you've already got a rear bar. just about EVERYTHING nowadays has a sway bar; must be a reason for it.......
yes, the frame could have spread a bit; BUT the most important thing is making sure your wheelbase is the same, front to back, on each side of the car. put your bolts in the front holes on both sides, snug them up, and then measure from the centerline of the front axle to the center on the rear axle on both sides; then compare the #s.
the back holes not lining up is not that big a deal. the TCI crossmember only bolts in the front and welds in the rear. if you can't get the bolts in by using an alignment drift, AND the wheelbase is the same on each side; then you can just run a weld across the back edge.
Bill
08-27-2007, 02:18 PM
#183
Le Mans Master
The turn signals have never worked right since I've owned this car. That may be another good reason to install a new column. The speedometer has never worked either. Maybe I can get that fixed while the column is out.
I really hadn't considered selling the old column but I did think that there may be a market for the steering box. I guess if they are permanently attached the column will have to go with the box. Paragon does not list a steering box in their catalog, just a rebuild kit for $400+.
It sure is strange how a malfunctioning clutch can turn into a $4000 project. I guess I'm lucky that I don't have a woman to question why I have to spend so much money to fix up a 45 year old car. A woman would probably want me to spend the money foolishly on stuff like food, clothing, and the house. Women just don't understand priorities. (Then again, I don't understand women, which is probably why I don't have one.)
Bob
I really hadn't considered selling the old column but I did think that there may be a market for the steering box. I guess if they are permanently attached the column will have to go with the box. Paragon does not list a steering box in their catalog, just a rebuild kit for $400+.
It sure is strange how a malfunctioning clutch can turn into a $4000 project. I guess I'm lucky that I don't have a woman to question why I have to spend so much money to fix up a 45 year old car. A woman would probably want me to spend the money foolishly on stuff like food, clothing, and the house. Women just don't understand priorities. (Then again, I don't understand women, which is probably why I don't have one.)
Bob
Here is a column from corvette central for 187$
This is what I'm considering using. I'm "assuming" my stock wheel and turn signal stuff will fit it. I'm still up in the air on column/smaller steering wheel. Last winter I switched out my tach for an electronic one that fit very well and was suggested by others here. I sent my spedo to corvetteinsturments. For the first time in 20 years I had a working speedometer! Bob I'll be watching carefully, as I to am interested in the Martz and am close enough to drive up and get it. I'm thinking over this winter. My car has no rear sway. With as bad as they plow in the front, I'm willing to wait and see myself. I'm hoping I'll feel like Bill. That being a new suspension will ride smoother and go where I point it, even at a fun pace.
Last edited by INMYBLOOD; 08-27-2007 at 02:32 PM.
08-27-2007, 03:02 PM
#184
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St. Jude Donor '07
Here is a column from corvette central for 187$ 
This is what I'm considering using. I'm "assuming" my stock wheel and turn signal stuff will fit it. I'm still up in the air on column/smaller steering wheel. Last winter I switched out my tach for an electronic one that fit very well and was suggested by others here. I sent my spedo to corvetteinsturments. For the first time in 20 years I had a working speedometer! Bob I'll be watching carefully, as I to am interested in the Martz and am close enough to drive up and get it. I'm thinking over this winter. My car has no rear sway. With as bad as they plow in the front, I'm willing to wait and see myself. I'm hoping I'll feel like Bill. That being a new suspension will ride smoother and go where I point it, even at a fun pace.
This is what I'm considering using. I'm "assuming" my stock wheel and turn signal stuff will fit it. I'm still up in the air on column/smaller steering wheel. Last winter I switched out my tach for an electronic one that fit very well and was suggested by others here. I sent my spedo to corvetteinsturments. For the first time in 20 years I had a working speedometer! Bob I'll be watching carefully, as I to am interested in the Martz and am close enough to drive up and get it. I'm thinking over this winter. My car has no rear sway. With as bad as they plow in the front, I'm willing to wait and see myself. I'm hoping I'll feel like Bill. That being a new suspension will ride smoother and go where I point it, even at a fun pace.
the listing doesn't give any info as to length; but based on my experience, a column about 40 inches long would be about right.
that having been said, i really suggest you consider a Flaming River or Ididit column; with the CC column you will still be stuck with the lousy OEM turn signal arrangement that really sux.
Bill
08-27-2007, 07:02 PM
#185
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St. Jude Donor '15
Well, here we go. I finally got all the old parts off. The steering box being permanently attached to the column didn't help matters much. You wouldn't believe how difficult it was to get the steering wheel through that little hole in the firewall! Anyway, all that being accomplished, I decided to trial fit the new suspension before I paint it. Now the fun begins. There seems to be a small problem. It doesn't fit. The new suspension is too narrow. I'm thinking that the frame rails may have spread slightly when I removed the old suspension but I don't think that is the whole story. I measured the mounting holes in the new and old suspensions. On the original suspension the inside holes are just about exactly 21" apart, all four. On the Martz suspension the front two holes are right but the back two are about 3/16" narrower. I called Martz and spoke to Andy. He said that the frame rails do move and that they had to use drift punches to align the holes on the one that they installed there but the 3/16 difference between the front and back holes was too much and that he was going to check their jig and another completed unit that they have there and call me back.
Nothing ever seems to go too smoothly does it?
Plasticman - You are correct. There is no swaybar. I wondered about that too but Andy Martz said that the coilovers are stiffer and have not shown a need for a swaybar unless the car is going to be road raced. I don't know a whole lot about cars so I just listen to what people with more knowledge have to say. What do you think?
Andy called back while I was typing this and says that their jig and the completed unit there both measure the same as mine so he suggested pulling the frame together and possibly cleaning up the holes with a drill. It's getting too hot to work out there right now so I guess I'll just think about it for a while.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
I think I'll go talk to the dog for a while
Bob
Nothing ever seems to go too smoothly does it?
Plasticman - You are correct. There is no swaybar. I wondered about that too but Andy Martz said that the coilovers are stiffer and have not shown a need for a swaybar unless the car is going to be road raced. I don't know a whole lot about cars so I just listen to what people with more knowledge have to say. What do you think?
Andy called back while I was typing this and says that their jig and the completed unit there both measure the same as mine so he suggested pulling the frame together and possibly cleaning up the holes with a drill. It's getting too hot to work out there right now so I guess I'll just think about it for a while.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
I think I'll go talk to the dog for a while
Bob
I bought the front sway bar for my Myers set up.
Once I had the front end cross member piece installed all the other pieces I installed all lined up to their respective holes with no problems.
08-27-2007, 11:38 PM
#186
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I did pull the frame rails together and got the four front outside bolts in. The remaining holes on the right side do not line up exactly but are probably close enough to clean up with a drill and install bolts. The left side is another story. None of the holes line up and appear to be too far off to drill. The rear outside holes on the frame mounts are partially over the welds that connect the mounting plate to the suspension.
I sent pictures of the misalignment to Martz and expect to hear from them tomorrow.
I like the idea that someone had about measuring the wheelbase and will do that whenever I can get someone here to assist me. But, even if it measures out right I don't think I want to weld this. This is supposed to be a bolt in unit and I would rather do it that way if possible. I guess it all depends on how far Martz is willing to go to make this work the way it is supposed to. It is sometimes difficult to find a company willing to stand behind their products these days but I am hoping that Martz is one of those companies.
I know that it is possible that the frame on my car is off since it has been around for 37 years before I bought the car but the suspension that I removed appears to be 100% original and undamaged and the holes don't measure the same as the Martz suspension. I'm thinking that their jig is off but Andy Martz says that they have a half a dozen other Corvette suspensions delivered with no other complaints. I asked him if anyone had called to report that they had finished one and he said that he has not heard from anyone with a running car. I wish that we had someone else here doing the installation of one of these just to compare experiences.
I like the way this suspension looks on the car but it is starting to look like it will be a long time before I get to drive it again. I hope that I haven't killed it. I have pieces spread all over the place and I'm not sure I remember where they all go. Also, the steering looks like it may be a challange.
I can hardly wait to see what tomorrow will bring.
Happy motoring,
Bob
I sent pictures of the misalignment to Martz and expect to hear from them tomorrow.
I like the idea that someone had about measuring the wheelbase and will do that whenever I can get someone here to assist me. But, even if it measures out right I don't think I want to weld this. This is supposed to be a bolt in unit and I would rather do it that way if possible. I guess it all depends on how far Martz is willing to go to make this work the way it is supposed to. It is sometimes difficult to find a company willing to stand behind their products these days but I am hoping that Martz is one of those companies.
I know that it is possible that the frame on my car is off since it has been around for 37 years before I bought the car but the suspension that I removed appears to be 100% original and undamaged and the holes don't measure the same as the Martz suspension. I'm thinking that their jig is off but Andy Martz says that they have a half a dozen other Corvette suspensions delivered with no other complaints. I asked him if anyone had called to report that they had finished one and he said that he has not heard from anyone with a running car. I wish that we had someone else here doing the installation of one of these just to compare experiences.
I like the way this suspension looks on the car but it is starting to look like it will be a long time before I get to drive it again. I hope that I haven't killed it. I have pieces spread all over the place and I'm not sure I remember where they all go. Also, the steering looks like it may be a challange.
I can hardly wait to see what tomorrow will bring.
Happy motoring,
Bob
08-28-2007, 04:41 AM
#187
Drifting
This is really intresthing thread for a long time guys!!!
About the coils , i prefer softer spiring for better ride quality and bigger sway bar. It worked really good in 63 vert with light weihgt LSx engine .
About the coils , i prefer softer spiring for better ride quality and bigger sway bar. It worked really good in 63 vert with light weihgt LSx engine .
08-28-2007, 05:29 AM
#188
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St. Jude Donor '07
Bob
if the old crossmember bolted/unbolted correctly, then the new one should fit the same holes too. when we did my TCI crossmember we found that the driver's side holes were off about 5/8", but i'm not sure that i can blame all of that on TCI... no matter though, we measured the wheel base on both sides and set both sides the same and redrilled as necessary.
as frustrating as my installation was at times, TCI stepped up and made everything right every time.... seeing as how yours bolts in place in one big chunk, then once you have the bolt hole problem sorted out, it should be clear sailing (that is until you get to the steering column
)
not to worry, you will get through this. amazingly, i only lost 1 piece (the bracket that holds the cover for the underside of the steering column; and i was able to order that new...) bag & tag everything you take off.
Bill
if the old crossmember bolted/unbolted correctly, then the new one should fit the same holes too. when we did my TCI crossmember we found that the driver's side holes were off about 5/8", but i'm not sure that i can blame all of that on TCI... no matter though, we measured the wheel base on both sides and set both sides the same and redrilled as necessary.
as frustrating as my installation was at times, TCI stepped up and made everything right every time.... seeing as how yours bolts in place in one big chunk, then once you have the bolt hole problem sorted out, it should be clear sailing (that is until you get to the steering column
)not to worry, you will get through this. amazingly, i only lost 1 piece (the bracket that holds the cover for the underside of the steering column; and i was able to order that new...) bag & tag everything you take off.
Bill
08-28-2007, 09:26 AM
#189
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Related Question
Does anyone here know where I might find the original factory measurements for the 16 mounting holes on the C1 front suspension crossmember? It seems to me that having those measurements would answer the question of whether the holes in the Martz Chassis suspension are in the proper locations or not.
Thanks,
Bob
Thanks,
Bob
Last edited by 62rat; 08-28-2007 at 09:28 AM. Reason: gramar
08-28-2007, 09:56 AM
#190
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unless your original crossmember has been modified, there is no reason to do anything other than measure the ones in the suspension crossmember you removed...
Bill
Bill
08-28-2007, 12:15 PM
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Bob
08-28-2007, 01:49 PM
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St. Jude Donor '07
don't know where you can get 'specs' or drawings; but seeing as how mine is already off the car, i can measure it for you. if mine matches yours, then their's is wrong...
Bill
08-28-2007, 01:55 PM
#193
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If I end up buying the Martz suspension, I am going to trailer my rolling frame over and have them put the new suspension under it. Hopefully, their jig is correct. I have a bare front suspension crossmember stashed away, maybe I ought to take some measurements from it....
08-28-2007, 02:27 PM
#194
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St. Jude Donor '07
mounting pad pic & dimensions
dimensions are center-to-center of holes. all holes without dimensions noted should be similar to other similar holes.
Bill
Bill
Last edited by wmf62; 08-28-2007 at 02:29 PM.
08-28-2007, 02:48 PM
#195
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I really appreciate your efforts. While you have the tape out can you get the center to center measurement between the inside holes between the left and right mounting pads?
Thanks, Bob
08-28-2007, 03:50 PM
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Bill,
The 21 inches is the same for all four sets of holes, front two and back two? That's what my old suspension measured too. On the Martz suspension the front two measure 21" but both the back two are 3/16" less.
Bob
The 21 inches is the same for all four sets of holes, front two and back two? That's what my old suspension measured too. On the Martz suspension the front two measure 21" but both the back two are 3/16" less.
Bob
08-28-2007, 04:05 PM
#198
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St. Jude Donor '07
yep, all 4 holes... so they're (Martz) WRONG..
however, i doubt you're going to send it back; so you'll just have to re-drill/slot their holes....
Bill
08-28-2007, 04:59 PM
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Well, I don't really know what my options will be. I spoke to Jeri at Martz and she said that they were having trouble downloading the pictures that I sent so she was going to download them at home and bring them in for Andy tomorrow. They sound concerned and I think that they have every intention of doing the right thing if this proves to be their error, which is how it appears to me at this point. I do not fault Martz as I was willing to accept the fact that my car was off if my measurements had not been confirmed by you. These are pretty old used cars that we are dealing with here. Unless you have owned it since new you have no real idea of what it has been through. Apparently the car that they used to make their jig was not exactly straight.
My main motivation for spending the $2500 and getting the Martz suspension was the fact that it was supposed to be a "bolt in" unit. I do not want to have to fabricate this thing. I don't have any faith in my ability to get this straight. I tried measuring the wheelbase on both sides but the centers of the back wheels are set in so far that there is alot of eyeballing ang guesswork involved. I really don't know if it is perfectly straight now or not. I acknowledged from the beginning that I have limited mechanical skills and even more limited tools. I can turn a wrench but I don't want to have to get more complicated than that. I know that I will be forced to be creative down the line when I need to hook up steering but in this case I have paid someone else to do the hard part. I am not in a real rush to finish this so I would rather have everything right when I do it.
We'll see what happens tomorrow.
Thanks for the help,
Bob
Last edited by 62rat; 08-28-2007 at 05:02 PM. Reason: added info
08-28-2007, 05:23 PM
#200
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St. Jude Donor '07
Bill,
they sound concerned and I think that they have every intention of doing the right thing if this proves to be their error, which is how it appears to me at this point. I do not fault Martz as I was willing to accept the fact that my car was off if my measurements had not been confirmed by you. These are pretty old used cars that we are dealing with here. Unless you have owned it since new you have no real idea of what it has been through. Apparently the car that they used to make their jig was not exactly straight.
they sound concerned and I think that they have every intention of doing the right thing if this proves to be their error, which is how it appears to me at this point. I do not fault Martz as I was willing to accept the fact that my car was off if my measurements had not been confirmed by you. These are pretty old used cars that we are dealing with here. Unless you have owned it since new you have no real idea of what it has been through. Apparently the car that they used to make their jig was not exactly straight.
sounds like my experience with TCI... i swear (tongue in cheek..) that i'm the second one that they ever built one for who has actually installed the suspension; and that prototype first one was 10 years ago... (they told me that they knew where the prototype 'mule' was (it was in a body shop) that they used 10 years ago and supposedly went to look at it after i starting having problems and asking questions...). BUT it all worked out in the end, and i'm sure yours will too.
Bill
and i'm sure that they are going to ask you to re-drill or elongate the holes that are off. not an unreasonable thing to do if there is sufficient material to do it with. i don't think they're going to send you a new suspension (a crossmember maybe..) or a person to fix it for you.
Bill