When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Here is some information posted on the Supercar Registry that might help eliminate all the confusion about what is an original ZL-1.
I have read there were maybe 18 original ZL-1 engines sold over the counter. My friend Steve Johansen bought one in the spring of 1969 from Jay Kline Chevrolet in Minneapolis. It was immediately given a Crower roller, Hillborn injection and stuffed into a 1948 Anglia with a B&M tranny. Ran that summer at Minnesota Dragways. I have no idea where it ended up, but we have seen a ZL-1 with a Crower roller in it on this forum. Remember the 71 convertible barn find known as The General? Anyhow, adding the 60 Camaros and 2 Corvettes makes a total of 80.
Last edited by Faster Rat; 12-31-2023 at 11:58 PM.
I’ve heard/read lots of interesting takes on the car over the last few weeks.
the car is still available. As typical with eBay, the winning bidder backed out of the deal. After paying the initial deposit, he quit responding to me. I have a feeling he was trying to resell the car without paying for it.
regardless. It’s a great car, and a lot of fun.
Hi, I think most know me as one of the 50+ year Corvette enthusiast who likes to research our favorite marque (not for hire, nor bribed), well second favorite behind wanting to trade what's in at least one of my garages for a real 1969 McLaren M6GT dream car. Many here maybe have visited the Rare Car Enthusiast Registry effort that is a long work in progress over on C2. We also have one of the Dana Chevrolet ordered through Dick Guldstrand and delivered by Dale Armstrong (famed Drag Racer/Drag Race Team Owner) that was the first of 5 Dealership modified small block cars, a 1968 dealer ordered in Primer, J-56 equipped, might be factory as car has a number of X marked parts, but small block, had 140 cam, the 850 Holley, Hooker race headers, cal custom fly eye and other parts, Lakewood shield, Torque Thrust Ds, Koni adjustable D's, etc. etc. etc. as delivered new.
Can you provide the markings off of your engine, as I will explain why.
The very first ZL-1 ever assembled was being pushed to the Hot Test, break-in room. The handler moving that engine hit a vending machine taking a little break halfway, then came back around the corner and that engine was gone and it was never found. Even the FBI was actually called, as GM had clout. The second engine was heavily escorted, but it blew up spectacularly when they went to WOT. The #3 engine finally made it into the hands of Zora. The Corvette ZL-1 preceded the Camaro getting any.
There were actually 7 ZL-1 Corvettes assembled, and 5 L-88 engines were substituted prior to selling the balance of them, not to be confused with the 454 cars. They had engine bay heating up problems, causing alot of thoughts to the street-ability. My Father was a great friend of Otis Chandler, LA Times newspaper Owner, and I rode in and talked extensively about the White car. This car we think was one of the 7 cars, but sold with the L88 engine. A counter engine ZL-1 was sourced and installed by a prior owner to him. The providence was enough for him and me to call it a ZL-1. Zora transferred those assembled engines out to the race teams when the ZL-1 Corvette was cancelled.
As for the counter supply, first full assembled engines were available for purchase, but racers with direct contact with Zora, like Greenwood, Delorenzo, etc. asked for kit engines, loosely assembled to be made for those wanting to blueprint and balance to be made available. A number of those went into the parts supply.
Thus I ask for the stamping, to determine which ZL-1 might be in this car. One prototype with some special markings. A production stamped engine, which this does not seem to be, one of the racer supplied out of the first 25 built, some of those went to the parts counter supply, or later counter supply, possibly the later part number for assembly.
Never know, maybe this is the stolen engine #1....... that would be totally cool!
The thing in the front was a special run of business card holders that were minature replicas of corner newspaper coin vending machines, he gave special to friend vendors that worked with the LA Times newspaper like my Father!
Last edited by TCracingCA; 01-01-2024 at 08:00 PM.
Here is some information posted on the Supercar Registry that might help eliminate all the confusion about what is an original ZL-1.
I have read there were maybe 18 original ZL-1 engines sold over the counter. My friend Steve Johansen bought one in the spring of 1969 from Jay Kline Chevrolet in Minneapolis. It was immediately given a Crower roller, Hillborn injection and stuffed into a 1948 Anglia with a B&M tranny. Ran that summer at Minnesota Dragways. I have no idea where it ended up, but we have seen a ZL-1 with a Crower roller in it on this forum. Remember the 71 convertible barn find known as The General? Anyhow, adding the 60 Camaros and 2 Corvettes makes a total of 80.
I will see if I can give you some assistance with this effort, like the ZL-1 had different whole engine part numbers depending on M22 (#3946061) or M40 (#3959178), you listed the Block. The initial after the true prototype ones, was an order of 7 engines for testing, and it is vague as to the balance going to the Parts supply or 25 more engines ordered. These 7 were delivered prior to 7/4/1969, so would need to research more from literature and my notes. Naturally the 1st car sold, was the Daytona Yellow in December 1969. St. Louis ordered the 7, and then 2 of these were sent to Warren, MI. Also Jay Kline was one of the very select Dealerships with trained specialists knowing the special GM Performance special parts, to support enthusiast and racers. Yes they got special stuff. Thus I think the 25 engine order was to get one of these into each of the so called High Performance Dealerships.
I think I have seen CanAm blocks cast as late as 1973 ???
I am lazy this week, but I have the capability of looking all of the info up on these Reynolds blocks and their availability.Naturally the Can Am blocks were a different animal than the subject ZL-1 engines/blocks. And some Can Am Teams did run the ZL-1 and not the Can Am units.
Last edited by TCracingCA; 01-01-2024 at 09:35 PM.
This is what I had remembered reading...
This a Motor Trend article from 2017 about a Winter's crate block that was found in my neck of the woods (Nashville)...in it's original wooden crate.
It is GM part # 3952318 but the casting number on the block is 3946053.
The article states that approximately 300 of these were cast between 1968 until 1974...
The 053 tooling was used for the re-release in the 90's...
Although I realize this car has an 052 block, this article has some great information and pictures that may help dispel some of the confusion on these engines.
This is what I had remembered reading...
This a Motor Trend article from 2017 about a Winter's crate block that was found in my neck of the woods (Nashville)...in it's original wooden crate.
It is GM part # 3952318 but the casting number on the block is 3946053.
The article states that approximately 300 of these were cast between 1968 until 1974...
The 053 tooling was used for the re-release in the 90's...
Although I realize this car has an 052 block, this article has some great information and pictures that may help dispel some of the confusion on these engines.
A 350 block came in that crate. #3965775. I have done the same, use a crate to store something else!!!!!!!!! Safe way of keeping something of value protected, especially an aluminum one. My guess is the other part number was stenciled onto it, which helps keep it identified while being stored. I have every catalog, every parts manual, everything from back then with the part numbers. On the quick search internet, I am seeing other big blocks associated with 3965775. Thus there is a possibility they just had extra 350 wood crates lying around, and used them for shipping in this later year 1973. I will look to verify 3965775, to not trust the internet, as maybe it is the part number for that sticker!!! Ha ha!
Last edited by TCracingCA; 01-02-2024 at 12:11 AM.
It didn't have a 350 in that crate...
When I look up the GM # 3965775, it comes up as the number of the sticker itself, and the sticker seems to have been used on the boxes of different GM, racing only parts...
As for the stencil on the crate # 3952318 That corresponds with an aluminum BARE block 427 ZL-1 according to the GM parts Wiki...
It didn't have a 350 in that crate...
When I look up the GM # 3965775, it comes up as the number of the sticker itself, and the sticker seems to have been used on the boxes of different GM, racing only parts...
As for the stencil on the crate # 3952318 That corresponds with an aluminum BARE block 427 ZL-1 according to the GM parts Wiki...
Just as I was going to check, the sticker part number! Fun stuff. On the internet, some guy I saw found a 350, and another guy with a 454. I have a whole bunch of those stickers on stuff I have, it is cold outside tonight, to go to the garage. Nice research, saves me time.
And no doubts of the part number for that block. Above I just share the whole assembled part numbers for guys. I will look to see if there was a partial engine too. I am still watching the football game. Would be nice to look at the casting dates on these, and other castings or stampings.
I rarely come to C3, even though I own one outright, and now have half interest in my Dad's car as bought into it from Brother. Eventually I might sell mine, and completely buy my Porsche owning brother out. You guys get after the research, I might hang out more!
The initial first assembled ZL-1 was completed in August 1968. That was the lost first engine. The White Room (Assembly and the Hot Test Room were only 175 feet apart, it was gone. Probably pushed into a room or exit, and someone got it out of there quick. The second one was ready September 1968. They made some changes to the machining operation and then by January and February, they were doing the block machining in batches of 25 at a time. Changing machining bits, for clean cutting, etc. Sometimes the process would turn out a flawed one, and that would go in the recycle bin. Each of these claimed starting in January 1969 with serial numbers starting at #001 were stamped with a sequential number, and then above that, with the date of completion. By the end of February one of the machinist thought they had 175 blocks done. Out of these St. Louis ordered seven of them built up into complete engines, in what would be the Corvette configuration, all 7 went into cars. These were thought to be delivered just before Fourth of July 1969. There have been ZL-1 blocks found with and pictured in the modern with 2 01 69 Serial number of 131, and 5-7-69 Serial number 349, which I have and will share pictures.
Thus two of those 7 engines arriving at St. Louis just before 7-4-1969 were sent up to Warren, MI and thought to be the two that went into the two Production cars. The cancellation of the ZL-1 Corvette happened when word came down in September 1969. This was never explained to Tonawanda, but rumors exist. The first car from CEC arrived for shake down at Tonawanda and assigned to Walt Withioltz- Dyno Test Manager guy, September 1969, he drove it home, but it won't start next morning and had to be towed back in, it had suffered problems with heat, and related issues like plug fouling, burned points. Took it home again and the same thing happened. It was tuned again and placed in the Pool, and everyone that took it out, basically had to get towed back in. The car having a reputation, that got around and it just sat. The car was sold off, prior to the normal 3000 mile test. It even had similar problems after shipped from one zone to another. I will end here, computer down on charge, getting late, heading to bed. Thus hope to venture in more hopefully later. Thus like in the post showing Blocks available, more unbuilt rare blocks made it into the Counter Parts system, than whole assembled engines. Thus I see many numbers are taken out of context as to how many total engines were built, vice rare components to assemble one.
Identifying this Ebay car engine should be easy by just grabbing the block machine serial number and date off of the side of it. That would tell us exactly when the block was machined.
Going back to my picture files to find these pictures, serial numbering these raised was not a simple process. I am thinking as to how they did these? I am sure someone will come along and explain, my guess would be a type of heat branding.
Last edited by TCracingCA; 01-02-2024 at 03:09 PM.
It really is very interesting...
The 052 & 053 numbers show up in various configurations and displacements...427, 430?, 465 & 494 Cubic Inches.
So this confirms the Winters blocks used for Can-Am
Even Yenko cast blocks use these numbers...
I found this on the Yenko site:
Can-Am blocks 68/69 - Winters
# 0-294550 = 4.250" bore with steel liners Experimental Prototype 67-68 Dry sump (427 ci)
# 0-321270 = 4.440" bore with steel liners Experimental Prototype 68 no boss for mechanical fuel pump(430, 465 ci)
# 0-326711 = 4.440" bore with steel liners Experimental Prototype 68 (430, 465 ci)
# 3946052 = 4.440" bore with steel liners (430, 465 ci)
# 3946053 = 4.440" bore with steel liners (430, 465 ci)
ZL-1 Factory blocks - 1997 & up # 3946053 427 ci.
# 3992038 may be 4.44" bore w/ Liners - era?.
# 3946052 Yenko Casting LC 427
# 3946053 Yenko - Casting has YENKO
# 3946053 Yenko - Casting has Y E N K O
# 394605Y Yenko - Casting has Yenko Crest Logo
Can Am teams like McLaren, Chaparral, and Shadow had the ability to run the special Can Am blocks, and there were others that used these, but many teams chose to run the lesser cost ZL-1 blocks, as they were more readily available. As you guys can see, there at least were 349 of them, according to the picture I shared. I will go into some of the catalogs of the day- as I have all of them, and Special Parts books.
I hope that Corvette replica ZL-1 owner comes back to share which one the car has.
Last edited by TCracingCA; 01-02-2024 at 03:19 PM.
I sometimes try to type technical stuff half asleep, so I cleaned up that last paragraph. I hope to move this into the Rare Car Enthusiast Registry I work on, over in C2 (better craft this history into that thread). I have promised projects to finish, to post, as I haven't quite finished those. I also better separate the big tank and small tank Z06s, within the overall Z06 list. I just haven't dove to deep into the C3 efforts in that thread. My weakest data is ZR-1/ZR-2 Vins. Any share would be appreciated, as i only have just under a dozen overall, but was working on that.
The initial first assembled ZL-1 was completed in August 1968. That was the lost first engine. The White Room (Assembly and the Hot Test Room were only 175 feet apart, it was gone. Probably pushed into a room or exit, and someone got it out of there quick. The second one was ready September 1968. They made some changes to the machining operation and then by January and February, they were doing the block machining in batches of 25 at a time. Changing machining bits, for clean cutting, etc. Sometimes the process would turn out a flawed one, and that would go in the recycle bin. Each of these claimed starting in January 1969 with serial numbers starting at #001 were stamped with a sequential number, and then above that, with the date of completion. By the end of February one of the machinist thought they had 175 blocks done. Out of these St. Louis ordered seven of them built up into complete engines, in what would be the Corvette configuration, all 7 went into cars. These were thought to be delivered just before Fourth of July 1969. There have been ZL-1 blocks found with and pictured in the modern with 2 01 69 Serial number of 131, and 5-7-69 Serial number 349, which I have and will share pictures.
Thus two of those 7 engines arriving at St. Louis just before 7-4-1969 were sent up to Warren, MI and thought to be the two that went into the two Production cars. The cancellation of the ZL-1 Corvette happened when word came down in September 1969. This was never explained to Tonawanda, but rumors exist. The first car from CEC arrived for shake down at Tonawanda and assigned to Walt Withioltz- Dyno Test Manager guy, September 1969, he drove it home, but it won't start next morning and had to be towed back in, it had suffered problems with heat, and related issues like plug fouling, burned points. Took it home again and the same thing happened. It was tuned again and placed in the Pool, and everyone that took it out, basically had to get towed back in. The car having a reputation, that got around and it just sat. The car was sold off, prior to the normal 3000 mile test. It even had similar problems after shipped from one zone to another. I will end here, computer down on charge, getting late, heading to bed. Thus hope to venture in more hopefully later. Thus like in the post showing Blocks available, more unbuilt rare blocks made it into the Counter Parts system, than whole assembled engines. Thus I see many numbers are taken out of context as to how many total engines were built, vice rare components to assemble one.
Identifying this Ebay car engine should be easy by just grabbing the block machine serial number and date off of the side of it. That would tell us exactly when the block was machined.
Going back to my picture files to find these pictures, serial numbering these raised was not a simple process. I am thinking as to how they did these? I am sure someone will come along and explain, my guess would be a type of heat branding.
unfortunetly, the engine in the white car has no such casting date or serial # in the side of the block. It is blank with no signs there ever was one. The only #s on it are the casting # (052 ending) and the stamped assembly date and suffix code on the pad.
hmmm....Could the cast date be located anywhere else? If there are no indication of grinding marks anywhere on the block....That makes it very interesting indeed.
hmmm....Could the cast date be located anywhere else? If there are no indication of grinding marks anywhere on the block....That makes it very interesting indeed.
looked everywhere and can’t see anything. Definitely no grind marks or indication of something being removed.
unfortunetly, the engine in the white car has no such casting date or serial # in the side of the block. It is blank with no signs there ever was one. The only #s on it are the casting # (052 ending) and the stamped assembly date and suffix code on the pad.
Yes, Interesting, thus Show us those, as many here are experts on stampings. I was going after the raw block vintage. Slim chance but possibly a super early 1968 block got out, but being stamped is interesting. There would be enough of these, to know what all they did. The tradition was using 0-XXXXX for prototype stuff, but that was generally cast in.
Also some of the Can Am teams even though these are Aluminum, did take any pound of extra metal on these off, a casual look might not catch a grind here and there.
There weren't many outfits putting out Aluminum Blocks. Yes, whether it has the Winters Stamp would be important. Not having that could cause this car to not sell or cause a problem, as can't call it a ZL-1 (someone elses Aluminum block build to ZL-1 configuration would be a replica ZL-1 build). I have a few odd ball catalogs like Rodeck and others, if no Winter Snowflake, then possibly one of those. I also do what to go back and review the markings on the Can Am engines, as don't remember if they are devoid of the Snowflake, cast up by Reynolds. We can get that answer pretty quick, as they have been talked about, but off of the top of my brain, I can't remember what visuals, without refreshing my memory. On these, like Grumpy Jenkins ran the Can Am engine, instead of the ZL-1, and some of the Can Am engines using the ZL-1 crank.
I personally am hoping we can identify this as a ZL-1. I was low to this topic purposely, as I assumed it showing up would draw most of the experts, and in this thread we already have seen the appearance of quite a number of them. Your buyer never closed, the 2nd isn't responding, and that happened before I have jumped in, I am playing caught up. I have caught some other forums talking about your car. The ZL-1 attachment, has caused a lot of chatter. I don't wish ill to you, hope you can get decent money. If it has that darn Snowflake, then you do have some money sitting there!
It does help the engine history, to figure out what you may have, so thanks for sharing! From the hits on this thread, this is like a mystery novel for many. That is also why I was chasing the info as to how guys think the production blocks were stamped (raised lettering). Maybe no branded on dates, but is there extra metal on that area?
Last edited by TCracingCA; 01-02-2024 at 07:32 PM.
12-31-2023, 10:06 PM
