62FIVET

yes. It has the snowflake

n2h2o2

It is a mystery, just waiting for us to solve...if we can...
I said this early in the thread and it is worth repeating...
The story behind this engine and car (or any ZL-1 Corvette) is just as interesting as the factory 2...
Experimental, test mule, stolen engine #1, former racing...Camaro, OTC tribute..Hell it could have been in a hydroplane of offshore boat for all we know....
Any of these are interesting details...

I did find a tidbit of a clue from a Forum post in 2004 from a guy in Canada, about an early, unmarked ZL-1 engine he had found..

He was asking the same questions we are today...
However, he says the back story he was told was it was one of two automatic engines (no Z-bar ball stud) for Timothy Eaton Jr...
I think he may have been referring to George Eaton who raced and won numerous Can-Am races in 1968,69,and 70.

Hi guys, I'm in Canada and I found a ZL1 block and it had no casting numbers and no letters but I do know it was not drilled and tapped for the ball and Z bar for 4 speed. I was also able to find out the block was one of two that Timothy Eaton jr. had and raced until a terrible accident put him out of racing ( no hard proof of this but was told from the previous owner ) but the block does have the dry sump attachments along the drivers side of the block, this block does have sleeves and is not a can am block and no winters foundry logo ? what is it ? it is an 69 vintage because the main caps do no have the the line up pins or dowels in place so this tells me it's an early block and no signs of grinding numbers off.
It is together and runs strong with 077 GM heads and a 198 intake and topped off with a Holley 830 cfm. Any body heard of some blocks being made without any numbers ?

And so we dive deeper into the mysteries...
Cheers.
Dale

ed427vette

The blocks cast date may be in a spot that can’t be seen. With the iron blocks (the 512 specifically) they moved the casting date info around March of 1969 from the side of the block to the bell housing area so it’s possible this is an earlier block then the ones shown above and the cast info is in a different spot that might be hard to see. Anyone know where it is on the Orange ZL1? That’s supposedly a early car with a assembly date before this one. Not that it’s a good example to use for several reasons but what else is out there to compare to?

I don’t know much about the ZL1 blocks as there just aren’t that many to study. The Camaro guys probably know more since there were 69 of those made from the factory (I think….).

n2h2o2

Great!...And so we can eliminate 80% of the red herrings...LOL

TCracingCA

Just as the Can Am stuff is more interesting to me, to help you guys with more info:

The bare block for the 430-465-495-510 Reynolds 390 Alloy unit is: #3965755

Piston and Pin assemblies were sold for 4.440 some overbore
Also for 4.450 and 4.500 and 4.510 bore. If someone wants those part numbers, I will type, but too lazy at the6 moment..Individually AR or you could buy sets of 8.
430/495 std #3992043
465 std. #3992051
4.44 bore set std. #3992061


Crankshafts were sold semi-finished in two stroke 3.75 (capable of cutting from 3.4 to 3.8) and 4.0 (capable of cutting from 3.9 to 4.25)

So none sleeved 695 cubes, but will have to see what could be done with the sleeves. I have some articles somewhere on what was their maximum.

n2h2o2

I was hoping Stan would join into this discussion....
He is way more knowledgeable than anyone I know on these engines...
And I bet if he doesn't know, he knows who does...

TCracingCA

ZL-1 Data to share for you guys

Initially the ZL-1 that went into the parts counter system, but only at certified High Performance Parts outlets- requiring train Counter people.

That was the meant for manual transmission #3946061 part number.

Quickly also ZL-1

#3974211 Short Block with Pistons and a Cam
#3974210 Short Block with Pistons
#3952318 Bare Block we have discussed.

So far up to 1971, these were all built up from the 3952318 bare serial numbered blocks.

#3952359 454 LS-7
and could be had in the same as the above, with it's own part #s. If someone needs those, I can try to not be lazy.

TCracingCA

Well thanks for the insult! Ha ha!

I have forgotten so much, but luckily I have probably more info saved than just about anyone still alive.

I also don't remember any of you guys by your real names!!!!!!! Smile

I don't even remember all of you guys by your Handle names. Double smile

TCracingCA

That odd color type is so hard for me to read on my tablet.

All thru the Big Block development, Vince Piggins and the engine guys were sending back door engines, blocks etc. out to the real race car outfits, Chaparral being the preferred outfit. Naturally with Hewland boxes, you don't need the ball stud for Can Am rear Transaxle cars. Thus Prototype blocks are out there. The quotes above, important distinction is no Winters Snowflake on that found unit. Chaparral like was pretty much the first test of the L88. The McLaren history is a little more complex, as they early worked with Traco, but Al Bartz left to open his own shop, and took McLaren with him as a customer. Traco retained Penske into the Big Block fitting into it's race cars. Chaparral hired the other Traco guy (damn drew a blank momentarily, super well known guy- damn almost had to get up off the sofa and struggle across the livingroom to get a book- Gary Knutson!!!

I haven't checked my notes or literature yet for any Automatic Engines put into the Counter parts network. i will check Nickey, Berger, Motion, Briggs, Grumpy, Gratiots, etc. etc. etc. if I get to that. I wanted to get some posts up, just as the topic is hot. Generally I would tackle this at my leisure and 8 months from now, post, but hungry crowd!

n2h2o2

No insult intended!
You obviously know a lot more than I ever will...on these rare monsters!
What I meant was that Stan knows way more than I do on the Rat motors...and mouse motors...and just about anything early C3...
I have always been a mouse motor guy...(Could never afford to play with the big guys).
Mostly drag racing back in the day at Beech Bend...Screaming 302 Chevy's with dual quad tunnel rams.. in a chopped top Vega...some dirt track stuff...mid west...old school...

TCracingCA

My preferred Small blocks, are the two All Aluminum GM Performance units I own. I got the one I pulled out of my good car, and a NOS virgin new one building it.

I can hold my own if I dedicate the time with anyone on any of these subjects, but I can start out playing caught up, as I don't have one particular area of interest in Corvette history, but attempt to be someone that can pull research, that not many can to include those that were involved back in the day, but forgot stuff. I have done it a few times right in front of everyone, more than a few times.

I had out the Claimed Orange ZL-1 last auction write-up, and everytime I read what they claim, the bullcrap gets deeper and deeper. Many of us watched them alter the claimed Dealership paperwork, changed it a few times.

I think like the 1963 427 MKII Daytona Coupe (Silver car is actually the White one, legit 427 MKII fitted car #787), and Zora's Mule, I will have to tear the bullshit apart. Trying to think if I have time to tackle that, as many Corvette research projects of my choice are in the que already.

The Orange car is claimed to have tank sticker, etc. which Ed has covered in the past and others, and it is claimed built 1968, way ahead of the true validated Yellow ZL-1. When St. Louis requested those engines, which arrived just before 7/4/69, this orange car is claimed to have tank sticker as I said. This crap does anger me, especially altered paperwork. We have laid out the phony altered paperwork trail related to the tank and Dealership here on the Corvette forum previously, that was mostly another members detective work. Since I have that auction write up up and open, I am going to pull notes, to get an impression on how inaccurate they made the claim!!!!!!! Later, thus I will see if that car holds any water, whether any possibility of an early prototype, those did not get ZL-1 Tank stickers!!!!!! Yes the car flippers for profit are not typically guys that I respect.

n2h2o2

Yeah...I think guys who know enough to build a fake, know enough to do high dollar restorations or build honest recreations...It all comes down to integrity I guess.
But I can think of a million ways to make money legitimately that take WAY less money, time and effort than to build a fake car...LOL
As for me, I have a very correct and well documented LT-1 vert, and doing a nut and bolt body off and building a ZR-1 Tribute car. ...F41, J50, J56, M22, 3.55 with a well documented and disclosed transition.
Not to sell, just for me to drive until they take my license away...
But they have to catch me first! Ha!
​​​​​​​

Stick To Your Gunz

Probably cheaper too!

TCracingCA

Looking at my timeline, and I am big on those, the auction write up is flawed. They talk dates, and then contradict the dates. Zora got the #3 built engine in Sept 1968. This engine claimed to be built 10/22, paired to M22 after 11/29, installed 12/9. That engine combination was not approved till 11/21/68. He claims he ordered on insider info from Yenko, and then had Grady Davis use his clout to get him this car. So ordered prior to assembly, but the Sales order for the car dated 12/30/1968, Motor #T0828MG, had engine in it T1022MG. I will run the estimated birthdate of the car before bed. Auction write-up claims January 1969 Service Bulletin suggested installing Fan Shroud, based on Customer Cars have problems with their L88/M40s. Factory open chamber heads finalized I think in 1969, thus Restorers to pass this car off, have Closed chamber heads on it. Very suspicious. So I will go into the Zora history with the ZL-1 and his time frame, etc. will probably blow the validity of this car apart. He only had his first engine the month prior, would have did some testing with just the power plant, and would have taken a week or so to get it into a car. I have a lot of literature on these, but just never thought to go thru it deeply, got a bunch of stuff together to discuss the white car with Otis. For this car to get assembled at St. Louis as the claimed 1st car is strange in itself. Generally Zora would have had his team put together a prototype and start running it. To have Grady Davis get one from assembly straight to a private customer, while they were in the fledgling stages of development is super suspect. The Yellow car was near a year from being out in the wild, Sept 1969 just prior to the model cancellation. The rumors of cancellation range from the heating issues, and it not being feasible for street production sales, to someone just wanted to get back at Zora, cancelled his new beloved model. I think it had more to do with moving onto the 454 LS7. From Production machining of the blocks starting in January 1969, and how many were produced, a whole lot of engines to acquire to make the claim of a ZL-1. The guy Maher did tell some people that he dropped an ZL-1 into his car, when they first were available. His amateur racing local Hillclimbs, Autocross, and drags started in Feb 1969 claimed. Thus tired of typing, so cut it here, but you can see where I am going. Timelines are super important to me when researching, I check things, to make sure they fit. I will start watching out for literature I have, old articles, generally just because of the internet, I now tend to start there as I am doing here, balancing that off of research I shared from my model notes and engine stories of the first engines. So essentially combining all of the claims and milestone dates into the timeline. I will be on the lookout to find some of the claimed competitions stuff (generally I find someone that can search old local newspapers that might have printed about the results, but I don't really do that anymore, with the internet), if it got any type of coverage, that is doubtful as no dedicated Corvette rags as early as 1969, except Corvette News.

TCracingCA

They are coming for all of our Classic cars or they will eliminate gasoline sales. I live in PR section, so will try to refrain.

TCracingCA

Stan is that Rowdy guy, yes he is one of the smart guys around here, I like his stuff. Damn I need to start a member who is who and what they are passionate about specifically list one day, if I ever want to be actually social. I am not a social person, and don't give a rat's *** to be Corvette famous. It is unfortunate that I even let my real name out, as it hurts my mystery persona!

So Ownership claim- raced from 1969 to 1974, hibernated for 15 years till 1989, started restoration, unveil 1991, took it on the circuit to show it off, sold 2007, new owner had MacKay restore. Engine blown, reason it got parked. MacKay said it did not have original engine when he got it and it seems to have been sold with the short block blown up, my guess is the heads taken out to on this engine. Sounds like an early engine was found and installed, equipped with closed chamber heads to attempt to make the story sound more feasible. 3 million dollars later!!!! Wow, let me tap dance on this some, with some research.

n2h2o2

Well now I live in Tennessee...hehe....Not too far from the Jack Daniels Distillery....And I think I know how to build a still and convert my engine to moonshine...er....ethanol...

TCracingCA

Before bed, I am one of those guys that as I remember something, I will add posts.

Well I remember Zora's engine works was shut down leading up to the ZL-1. His merry engine team was split up, and Fred Frincke was sent off to the Main Chevrolet engine group. That is why Zora was frustrated awaiting this ZL-1 aluminum engine, and didn't have direct control over the development destiny of this engine. Later he was able to have an engine Team again. I am looking for dates, so this would tell us more. Something definitely wrong with ZL-1 Corvette existing prior to production, without Zora's involvement, so any prototypes had to have his hand in any cars.

TCracingCA

The first race test for the 427 cast up in aluminum two were given to Jim Hall for the new 1967 Chaparral 2F Endurance Racer entered for Daytona
24 at the season opener.


Hall didn't quite have the second 2F ready, so they took last year's Chaparral 2D model, the model that won Nurburgring in 1966, and modified the engine bay to fit the other engine.


At this point, they were not called ZL-1s. For LeMans, these were supposed to be based on Production Engine, but LeMans was interested in the entrant. They also showed up with painted blocks, the Head were raw just to throw off Scrutineers. The 2F would win Brands Hatch in July 1967. In Can Am which started later, they installed these direct Chevrolet Engineering supplied race engines, also in the Chaparral 2G.


I am up late, so will share about Team McLaren later. This was called durability testing essentially, and led to the final strengthening, gussets, reinforcements, material thickness for the coming Production Engine blocks. This was spearhead by Vince Piggens, working with the Teams.

TCracingCA

The Reynolds 390 engine 465 cu. In. Configuration was the unit size that ran the ZL-1 cranks and rods. The 495 used 454 crank and rods.

In May 1969 issue of Motor Trend, a White ZL-1 was featured.