FastCarsNMeanGuitars

K. Scott Teeters from the Corvette Report has articles and conversations with Joel Rosen of Motion and CARS mag editor Marty Schorr who drove a Blue ZL-1 delivered by Chevrolet for a CARS test drive article. Marty said several other cars were sent out to other publications for test drives as well. They also were around Baldwin Chevrolet where its possible they had knowledge. Joel most likely, he was a member of the PA Hill Climb Club where he raced the circuits with his 64. Some of those clubs also have alot of documentation of cars and races, I've used them many times over the years verifying race cars. A suprising number of L-88 cars were raced and lost engines there, including GM employees. Test grounds I bet.

https://www.pahillclimb.org/phpBB/vi...1565&hilit=L88

https://hillclimb.org/

Interesting to note that alot of the GM employees from Tonawanda NY raced and participated in at least three separate Hills / race events in the North East area that I know of during the Zora Era. . . Duntov's mule was white


He was a Hill Climber, many don't know he set a record at Pikes Peak!

This is supposedly the CARS test mule in Florida, same situation, no documentation.

Here is a link to an early 68 prototype block with pics via Kevin MacKay
https://www.promarengine.com/whats-n...27-zl1-engine/

Here is a link to a Motor Trend Article documenting an original engine from crate, tag and block ~ 27 high quality historic detailed images :

https://www.motortrend.com/features/...ored-40-years/

Corvette-ZL1

A good video on the ZL1 owned by Roger's Corvette.... Short and sweet, but good information.


And a longer video of it running -

TCracingCA

First engine rebuilders should not write history (Promar).
Can Am 1966 Champion Surtees in Lola T-70 Chevrolet
Can Am 1967 Champion McLaren M6A Chevrolet

They also were no where close to 327 anymore. Traco liked their 365 cube customer car engine.

Joel Rossen did not get an ZL-1 Corvette from Zora, but was one of the first to get ZL-1 engines in bulk, offering Blocks, Short Blocks, Partial Engines, complete engines, probably the lead outfit in handling these. He generally built up his true car optioned rides.

Little known to most, but the ZL-1 as named start of 1968, will have to look up when the code stuff and share that, but for Team Mclaren, it was first fitted into a bastard car, an M6A from the previous 1967 season, but with a M8 rear end grafted to the car. Thus this prototype led to the Big Block in the M8A, subsequentially at the first race and the Can Am seaon starts later in the season, those ZL-1 engines were delivered from Tonawanda to St. Louis. Thus cars!!!! I am going to add in Road Tests, etc. by Maganizes and lay all of that out,.

I am falling asleep at the keybord, got to go sleep!

FastCarsNMeanGuitars

“Since we can not prevent people from racing Corvettes, perhaps it is better to help them to do a good job at it.” Zora Arkus-Duntov

The Corvette survived because of racing and Corvettes raced because of Duntov.

TCracingCA

Well I fell asleep, and now got woken up, and now don't feel exhausted, but now awake. So let me plug in some more stuff. I also realized on my Registry I in error had that post as 1970, brain fart probably. Ok I like timelines, let's insert the 4 cars most talked about.

Vin #194379s706401 Yellow Coupe built approx. forgot to write that down, will add (November 2nd 1968). This friggen car went to Europe for LeMans. Some subtle mentions here and there. This car being off shore doesn't get the American Attention. They were painting ZL-1 early to look like L88 masking off heads, block Orange and oil pan. I will look more into my long term suspicions. Zora was over there with it and the hot blonde chick!

Vin #194379s706753 White coupe built approx. November 6, 1968 shows in Motor Trend May 1969 (former Otis Chandler car I got to ride in). This car fits perfect for early development car. It is definitely earlier than any thought of producing any for Production. We can get into that comment more later, but most who are following can see the timeline developing, for those that can't-- Hey Wake up, the Bare Block production started in January 1969!!!!!!!!! Ok are you caught up?????? So this car would have a very early Chevrolet Engineering mill dropped in and Zora was probably driving the **** out of it. I think it appears even earlier during it's build. My opinion the best case of being the early mule. Lent out for exposure to the Magazines. I DO NOT CONSIDER THIS AS 1 of 2 PRODUCTiON!

Side note: I will attempt to ID the White Flared car and the timeline on that, and the super racy other cars that show up, obviously Zora targeting track development with a few of these.

Next up
Vin #194679s710209 Orange Convertible built approx. December 13, 1968 Automatic, and I don't think it is breaking News, that I am not a fan of this car. Ya they could do a Brass Hat car deal, Grady Davis is a guy that has been on that list. Could get special ****. But this car doesn't appear to have done anything related to development. Some related data, indicated 300hp origin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This car just doesn't fit. Also that Maher guy was trying too hard to prove it, he flipped it with the engine in it still blown up. We have a trail of suspect evolving paperwork, a funky as hell claimed Tank Sticker, etc. not even printed in the Dot print of what was used. I think this guy had a slow piece of crap, and when the Counter Engines came out, he finagled one and away when the claim. These restorers can make Gold out of Cheese!!!!

Ok Next up
Vin #194379s729219 Yellow Coupe built approx. September 12, 1969 and this car has the providence. it fits what would have been production. Got out the door just in time, prior to the cancellation. I like everything about this car's story. Two solid connections to Plant personnel. The car problems, sounds like a first early production horror story!
To speed things up, to get back to sleep, as getting tired again, Next

So let's throw it into the focus
Vin #194679s738624 Blue Coupe Built last month of Production December 30th, 1969. This car fits as a Production car, way better than Yellow French Racer, White Otis car, or claimed Grady Orange Brass Hat, Wow 3 million score by Flippers (orange)! And back to Blue here, they don't show Paperwork, but I haven't deep dived looking to see if any of that has been peeped out to the public. Engine is correct vintage, #3946052 dated 4-11-69 (I should go do more Camaro research, as I have a total alias unconnected and they love me less over there than the Corvette crowd, but study more ZL-1 block dating, and do a calculator and estimate the Block serial number here from 4-11-69, but then we are figuring out that there were at least 349 blocks machined (hard to calculate till I make my own determination on how many blocks got done. We also need to clear up all of the mumble jumble on claimed figures throw around, on this ZL-1 engine stuff. There was an article Corvette Fever July 1989, so will have to find my copy, as my literature collection, records, etc. etc. is massive. I am a car literature hoarder to the extreme, and have posted up a few pictures in the past to show my Excessive compulsion disorder, rain man mode of Corvette researching. Many don't like my crude and rudeness! I don't join up, not part of the Corvette wannabe Celebrity troop.

Funny the White car (call it Otis) and the Yellow car come along when a number of L88s were put out. I will still dive into this some more. I will hope some guys jump in, and join me, if I have something amiss! Always appreciated.

Oh ya, will try to finish up Team McLaren as Knutson joined Al Bartz, but then he for 1969 split off to work for Chaparral. My Traco shirt! I used to hang with Travis when I was a young guy, he called me Kid, and later Jones, Hooper, and others called me Kid, as my Father was doing his LA Times junk mail Sunday times advertising insert sales, to all of the Race or automotive outfits of the day. He worked with Mickey Thompson side by side in the 50s, both as LA Times Newspaper Pressmen after my Father graduated, my Dad an LA Times Delivery boy prior, he went to LA High School, met Mom who worked at North American Aviation! Then Mickey left to be famous, but they stayed occasional friends. So I would be kicking tires, wandering these shops, and dealerships, Pre-Osha, while the adults all told brag stories. A few of my T-shirts and Jackets related to my upbringing!

TCracingCA

Well McLaren at the end of 1969 newly under George Bolthoff took over after Gary Knutsons Chaparral defection, George punched the ZL-1 to 7101cc and 680 bhp @6800.

For the LS-7 454, they only raced once at Michigan, Dan Gurney joined them for a 3 Team assault and engine comparison, running the race ZL-1, against the LS-7 454 Aluminum also, but it had vibration, harmonic issues, and the new Reynolds based block engine!

For 1970, they opened their own engine shop in Livonia, MI and Bolthoff chief engine builder. The standard unit was the 465 (7.6 liter), and got 670 bhp and the total assembly was 460lbs. He was working on a 494 cube, and got 710 bhp. They initially had liner slippage, which caused head gasket damage, overheating.

1971 Knutson returned and they did play with the ZL-1, punching to 8.1, but the Reynolds blocks could go 8.5 potential. In 1972 they did punch one out at 9 liters. 1971 the now standard configuration was the 8.1 liter (494 cubes) and they were at740bhp @6400 still improving torque curve. In 1972 got one up to 770 bhp in 494.

Tired now, good night!

TCracingCA

As I was tired, groggy, and not a great literary author, not even a good one, I am not even attempting some concise story here, but a researchers sharing of what I have. Thus I looked at some of my last posts, and will try to go back smooth those out, for the sake of posterity like the word defected wasn't coming to me related to Knutsen leaving for Chaparral, so I just edited that in, so you could read the sentence thought, and it now makes sense. I still this moring could use 2.7 more hours sleep, so mentally I think I am rested.

I had an email question, so that answer is the Reynolds 390 Can Am blocks were set up to run Production cranks (ZL-1 and LS-7 units and rods is my understanding and could double verify), but the highest metallurgy Semi-finished cranks could be purchased and a crank grinder could finish out. I know that McLaren built a few engines that were different displacement than 430, 465, 494, and later punched out Reynolds blocks to 510 cubes. In 1971 they had a bastard displacement unit, building specific to make torque numbers, 665 @ 5600 in a straight 480 cu in. build (7.8 liter) put in the M8F.

Here we are mainly talking ZL-1, but have ventured into the Can Am blocks. But yes ZL-1 development in racing did continue to be done, even by top team McLaren, well into 1969. Come 1970, the builds were off of the Reynolds Can Am block, but other teams still were running ZL-1 and even old iron units. In 1971, they had run 510 cubes in Revson's car..

I am familiar with this as I have used 4340 raw GM Performance units or Semi-Finished myself. I throw a Big block snout cut onto them, as running stuff off the crank, it just is an extra layer of strength. In running Gilmer Belts, those toothed clogged pulleys and such can like destroy a flex fan, with the vibration and harmonics, etc., I am not running power steering, but I double belt using a capture inner on the crank and water pump, but mainly I could convert to Dry Sump if I ever start racing again.

TCracingCA

Responsing to private communication, My opinion naturally, a car claiming to be 1 of 2 Production, disqualifies itself, if build completion was December 1968 in the case of the Orange car!!!!!!!!!!!

PS shame on you guys!!!!!!!

DKM-106

I think everyone knows my thought's on the 3 reported factory built Zl1's. Car no 29219 owned by Roger and ordered new by George is a real car and one of the 2 RPO ZL1 cars built. Car no 6753 is too early to have been built as a factory ZL1 and was most likely a factory built L88 and raced with a ZL 1 engine in it. Car no 10209 owned by John Maher, the orange convertible, was not 1 of the 2 RPO ZL1 cars. There is no verified paperwork proving this car is a real ZL1. I believe it was ordered as an L88 M40 car and raced with a ZL1 engine in it. No ZL1 car has been verified as a factory built ZL1 car other than the yellow one.

TCracingCA

I am just entertaining the Blue car, as two Production car built. The cancellation of the model in Sept 1969 should disqualify any built up later. But if the car was ordered, getting built, and finished December should be a possibility, except they don't share paperwork or a possible true believable story. That raises suspicions.

I lean exactly how you are summarizing them. If Orange would have not made the mistake of claimed Production, then would be more willing to give it some attention, but Oh Well! I will leave it up, hoping to draw out some truth. I am pretty done with Orange, too bad 3 million paid gives is the benefit of doubt in Corvette circles. Touchy subject, I have mire ammunition against it, but will keep that from the public and current Ownership. The beef related to it arises related to the Maher period of Ownership!

Vette5311

I don’t pretend to be an expert or know as much about this as others here, but just wanted to relate - in 69 I worked part time at a Chevy dealership in Cali and all the lunch break talk about the ZL1 got my attention. I asked the parts mgr what it would take to get one. He just laughed and said, “you gotta know somebody AND you gotta be somebody, and that he and I were neither one.”
Great thread guys, love the information and I too find the blue car intriguing

n2h2o2

Well...I am not smart enough to get way down in the weeds on these cars.
But I would like to ask...
If White Coupe Vin #194379s706753 was built approx. November 6, 1968 and is unquestionably legit...
And Orange car Vin #194679s710209 built approx. December 13, 1968

How can the VIN# 9th position jump from S70 to S71 in one month?
I'm looking at the C3 Registry and something just isn't right...
Do I have a typo here? If S710209 is correct, it should be December 69?
Funny thing is that the orange car is on the 1969 registry and reported to be 300HP (nice driver) LOL

Now some people back in the day would order a car with the base engine because they wanted to avoid high insurance rates.
The Registry page lists all the other goodies: F41, J56, etc with a base 300HP...
Maybe the car was an OTC ZL-1 from the dealer? Just a hunch...

n2h2o2

Also, found this: (Not related to previous post)
052 Block #353 5-7-69


052 Block #353 5-7-69

TCracingCA

I don't remember which Birthdate calculator I used (it wasn't C3 Registry, but I thought they were all tied to the same databases?), I was tired, and typing things like Vin numbers can make me cross-eyed. I actually need Bi-focal glasses, as I constantly have to drop them off of my nose to read print or see what I am writing. I have been known to type one wrong. I guess some guys give me Expert knowledge on my Corvette topics, and on some of my work, I just got tired of 50 years messed up histories, so solving research puzzles is something that I started doing as a teenager, so 45+ years of doing this stuff, and at one time I was kind of unofficially doing it professionally for museum chains, and magazine people, and some clubs. Briggs Cunningham probably one of the most renowned friends. I have interacted with like MacKay a few times, and the Greenwoods, and others.

i can go back and check the Vins, but not tonight. December 1969 would be a game changer, and also I might have taken a mistaken vin # straight off of someone elses internet post, without double checking accuracy. This is very reason is why I lay things up in a timeline, oldest Vin to newest Vin, to get a second set of eyes. i will go back to all of the Orange cars paperwork, if someone don't come along and tell me I typed the wrong Vin. Not the first time as I said, as for a little while on my 1967 L88s list, modernizing that list to share, I switched a few numbers for awhile, and drove people crazy. I have no skin in the ZL-1 game, just throwing in an effort to help iron it out. I am also going out of my normal long drawn out Research style, just to share as fast as I can stuff, as the topic seems to be getting a lot of looks. Trying to keep ZL-1 fans happy! Let me ensure I didn't screw up the Orange car Vin, and will get on a computer tomorrow to cut and paste, if edits are necessary, as I don't even attempt that on my other devices, as I can tend to erase an entire post of work by acccident.

n2h2o2

Well… I don’t think you made a typo…
The claim birthdate for orange is December 1968,
But the VIN is December 1969.
The car is in the registry, and even has a picture of it.

ed427vette

The vin 710209 is the 10209th car built which is December 1968. An example of a December 1969 would have a vin of 735xxx. One of my cars was built in January with a vin of 712871.

In the 1969 model year it was not unusual to build 3000 cars a month. The difference between 706753 and 710209 is about 3500 cars with a separation of about 5 weeks as per your info you asked about.

Im not sure where you are getting confused but you are reading something wrong.

n2h2o2

Thanks for the correction!
Yes, I see now what caused my confusion... It was the strike, which extended the production by 4 months into December 1969 for the 1969 model year...
So for 1969 production, cars were built in December 1968 AND December 1969....
That's where I got confused...
So yes, orange car was built Dec 13, 1968.,

"The strike at St. Louis began about April 9, 1969 and lasted until June. No cars were produced in May. The decision to continue 69 production into December is attributed to John DeLorean who was heading the Chevrolet Division of GM at the time".

But the registry shows it as 300HP base engine, so I still think it may have been ordered with intent to replace the engine after customer delivery.

TCracingCA

Thanks, for a minute there, I thought I put up a bad Vin. You are one of the more knowledgeable guys, always respect your shares!!!!!!

TCracingCA

Lost some time double verifying, but no harm/no foul. Ya I see the 300hp thing on that C3 Registry, and that probably will remain a mystery. Somehow that was tagged to the Orange car, and I don't always remember where I derived my old notes from. In this case, I am looking at stuff from maybe 13 years ago????? Thus could be a combination of notes from articles, magazines, like Vette Vues, Internet chatter, etc. etc. It is about time that I attempt to put those someplace, so Corvette Forum is the lucky recipient.

As for the Orange car, as I said!!!!!! I have a problem with it being 1 of 2 production cars. As far as a test mule or whatever, I have nothing directly that says it could not have gotten a ZL-1 somehow, but it sounds like it has it's third engine in it. The short block was claimed to have blown up, then restored 1991/1992, seen both dates in articles and it toured the Country, entered in shows, etc., so had to have some motor. Then MacKay gets ahold of it, and whatever was in it was thought to be totally wrong, and so they clearly took care of that, sourcing an early engine as stated. How early, who the hell knows. Can someone when it is next in public, climb under or over it and see if some dates can be found. Earlier to me would be pre-production block, something someone found, heck maybe even a raced block, as it has an automatic. I still haven't pulled articles written about it. I have too much literature to have it all that precisely organized. An impossible task. I have been shooting toward storing stuff in date order. This Maher guy sounds like on my Father's level, some amateur, weekend warrior drag racing, slalom/autocrossing/ and track day stuff, car shows, polish it/shine it up and be the big shot for the day talking it up to casual people passing by. The ZL-1 story/claim is so old, that it has finally stuck, some funky paperwork and all. When I do start re-reviewing old articles I will be looking for lies, like original engine during the Maher period. Sounds like the blown short block was still around, after he started to make the claim about ZL-1. Thus smart thing, keep the claimed original motor, even if it is garage art! Dude that was your potential proof of true ZL-1, and MacKay had to go find that Ownership a date appropriate engine? Regardless of how blown up an aluminum engine is, I guess they never heard of welding!!!!!!

TCracingCA

Great share, we are now up to 353 at least blocks machined. We are greatly helping this history.