ed427vette

You can’t go by anything the Registry has with regard to how a car was ordered simply because that info is put in by…well, anyone. There is nothing “official” about the Registry. It’s a good source for some info, yes, but it’s all entered by whoever feels like imputing the info. The orange car at the very least was probably an L88 just like member DKM has pointed out on many occasions. I am willing to believe the car was given to Maher as a ZL1 “transplanted” car by someone from GM so he could go racing or do whatever but like most others here, I believe the car was born something else off the St.Louis assembly line.

No way it was a 300hp car as just too many modifications would have had to have been made to make it go racing. They would start with a production “performance” based car. Almost certainly an L88. Why reinvent the wheel? These were real race car drivers with connections, not amateurs in a house garage down the block.

n2h2o2

Yeah, I get it....Not that I was putting much into the details on the registry...Just wanted to note what the owner claimed there at time of entry.
But I remember guys who ordered base cars with every intention to replace the engine with a hipo OTC...Some guys were into building sleepers...most wanted to be able to be insured.
Kept Yenko and Baldwin as well as other performance dealers busy....
Don't want to spin wheels on the orange car...Just want to research the truth, or at least the plausible...

Pboyd

The 353 does not indicate the number of blocks machined. It probably indicates the number of blocks cast since that number was cast in not stamped. I understand there was a very high rate of rejection of ZL-1 castings so many fewer were machined. I have an August ZL-1 block that was a warranty fitted block for ZL-1 Camaro #41. I will photograph its cast number when I get home next month. I also have a damaged 0-294550 block out of 1967 Chaparral Can-Am car. I does not have a Winters Snowflake. I will check to see if it has a threaded hole for a clutch pivot. I think it actually does.

n2h2o2

Good point...
We are really just trying to verify Winter's cast numbers as well as their corresponding cast dates...Since these would be available in Camaros and OTC...
How many machined or rejected Winters, is a whole different can of worms...But are good points to note when considering what is out there..
Reynolds and Can-Am blocks... are more of a side note, as far as it relates to Corvettes...
But the subject of this thread ( The white car on Ebay) is kind of a mystery since he states it has the snowflake but no cast date....this engine is very interesting...

TCracingCA

Hi Same thing, when I say machine, it is taken from the cast, some checks are made and then if good branded during the cast or branded hot, and if when cooling and if it is not checking out, then shitcanned and they brand the next one that checks out. I did ask earlier if anyone knew the process, and I was not insinuating some type of cold brand, which I don't think is possible. Or they start the machining in of the barrels, the lifters, etc. and if all is well, they had some sort of hot brand they did. I do firmly believe these are all individually dated, and they seem to line up sequentially, lower numbers/earlier dates, later dates/later numbers. But yes let's all check on this, see what more we can find.

Ok for all I had about 8 magazine articles out and like the Orange car is a joke, moving goal post story, side by side display of altered West Penn Invoice. The guy bought other cars from there, and probably used other Invoices to totally creates an invoice, the tank sticker is a joke too. But like his one article in 2006 is a crazy liars story of his history of engine swaps, if the modern auction story is what they are pushing is to believed, the story coming from Maher is claimed??????. Just one example, as I am busy today-- Claims traded in an L88, they gave him $5000 credit. On one invoice it shows in the right columns, on the other invoice, it is in a different place. The typing on these moves around, each time they phonied up a new invoice version. This Maher guy might have been one of the biggest con artists in our Corvette World-- a true buyer beware guy!!!!!!!! Well he claims to get his 336 axle, and Kustom brand side pipes, those don't look like the Kustoms units on it now!!! But dealer swaps 4.11 for $350 install price, the easy bolt on Headers $500 install. OK, so one article he is going drag racing with the ultimate all Aluminum engine, but then 2006 article, he immediately pulls the ZL-1 after purchase, I guess to perserve it, and installs an L88, so why not just keep the L88 that you had. Every car this guy claimed to have gotten from West Penn Garage was the rarest of the rare, a lightweight sedan, a 1966 HD Corvette, the 1968 L88, etc. etc. Then moving forward, he uses the car and when he parked it, claims he reinstalled the prinstine ZL-1, whereas in other articles, the short block was damaged, it was parked due to the engine being trashed. In one story the block was damaged by a rat taking up residency inside the motor, shouldn't happen unless you had it apart. Then other engine swap of a different ZL-1, but hey he had the original ZL-1 rebuilt by the same guy that rebuilt the new driver Aluminum block, telling everyone he had the oringinal in his garage,
then the car is sold in 2007, and suddenly MacKay and gang aren't happy with the engine in it, so sounds like if he had the original, it didn't go with the car. Probably not the original motor if checked out professionally, or his preserving the original was just a claim for fame in that magazine article. So now they are searching for an appropriate one to claim essentially first true day of a bunch of 25 being done around 12/9, as the closed chamber heads.

I am moving my date of engine cast and machining back to December 12/9 as the start, and even the Camaros in researching them, the early ones to Fred Gibb/Dick Harrell went out the door in later December. So January Production, was when they started truly turning out batch after batch in lots of 25 for each batch. They obviously stopped or paused in April, and then some more got done May 1969.

Otis and my conversion about the White car, is that it was flared at one time, but he bought it restored. We had the 1968 model, fitted with the ZL-1 pre-production, and that could be called the true Zora mule and that car got destroyed, and then we have the Otis car. I do need to look back at the 1969 May article to see which car that is, and should have done that before this post, but forgot to, and I am already typing. Many of us can look that up, and see if that Road test was the 1968 or 1969 model white car?

I pretty much reviewed near everything on these, from the internet to better remember. It has been a well theorized Model, so will try to not rehash the same ground that is well known like Tonawanda records show 94 finished engines, 80 stick/14 auto. But a whole lot more were built up by racers, privately from all of the blocks cast and machined put into the Counter parts supply. I have a phone call to make, enough for now.

And the Orange car still sells for big 3 million dollar money, due to the people endorsing it!

DKM-106

Ed, you are correct. The orange car didn't start as a 300 hp car. It is listed in GM engineering docs with the vin as an L88 car.

TCracingCA

I got out some of the books and reviewed those. The May 1969 Motor Trend had the 1968 Convertible with Hardtop, flares, and ZL-1. There were other cars there, and no White T-top (Otis car) as I thought. The other noteable car was a 1969 Yellow L88 Convertible.

For July 1969, the Press event featured the same 1968 Convertible with Hardtop, flares and ZL-1 with the added center Blue racing stripe- it was dubbed Zora's Club Racer. This event was to be the unveil for the 1970 Models, but none was done, so all cars at this review were 1969 Models fitted with the hot engines. The red car with ZL-1 set up for drag racing was ran, with slicks, no flares, special exhaust, 4.88. This car would evolve into the LT-2 car for 1970.

And history, to fill orders they extended the 1969 models to December 1969.

I went to the Anaheim Supercross, etc. out for late dinner, didn't get much time to continue thru these articles.

PS in earlier posts, I was not thinking the Otis car was the 1968 Zora Club Racer, but one of the cars there, but I was mistaken. The Club Racer is a Convertible with a Hardtop, and the Otis car is a Coupe with T-Tops. Otis thought his car, had been raced by someone in it's prior life.

Still trying to build a timeline is my objective on this ZL-1 history.

TCracingCA

I do think this car, has some messed up info, but believe it to be a legit ZL-1 that gets missed in the conversations.

n2h2o2

I don't know what the paper trail says what this car was out of St Louis. Maybe it was an L-88 or L71....?
But the "real" race drivers and teams built their cars. Only rich guys with connections and factory teams with deep pockets bought show room race ready cars...The factory ZL-1's were more for PR and press coverage anyway.
Teams were already racing C2's and there were plenty of wrecked BB street cars and old race cars they could use to build one for racing. That is why they only built a handful of factory ZL-1's but they cast at least 353 aluminum blocks and sold these as bare blocks, short blocks, long blocks OTC to the race teams. J56 wasn't new or rare. Neither was J50, M21, M22 or F41...The teams figured out they could buy a stripped down base 68 or 69 for the body and aero, and use parts from their old C2 race cars, junkyard parts, and some new OTC...to build their own L88 or ZL-1 race cars.

Pboyd

This article contains a very interesting comment— that Henri Greder took delivery of a new 1969 ZL-1 from Zora Arkus-Duntov himself only weeks before a race that took place in June of 1970. I don’t think that has ever been mentioned in any ZL-1 discussion before. It certainly suggests that the only 2 production ZL-1s were late production cars and both painted yellow. All the other claimed ZL-1s are either L88 transplants or outright fakes.

TCracingCA

Yes, I have a whole lot of thoughts on this one, and how it happened. I need to run down one connection that might be missing that would have led up to this. I think some in between history is missing. I guess I need to dig out my French Magazines, but I know I have those buried, but collected a number due to the French LeMans Corvettes being raced. I have researched Greder and the twists and turns of his Corvette passion. I remember clipping that into a notebook someplace.

Other things that I am doing related to the Otis Chandler car, is attempting to run down the prior Ownerships. I generally don't track Ownerships, but I do recognize that they often lead to uncovering history. And I am not talking about Jack C.

The Orange car, I am done with! In my Rare Car Enthusiast Registry, I am going to remove it as a ZL-1 car, over to the suspected L88 car (just because they continue to claim ZL-1 status. Some of you have a record that I don't think is out for the public to view, related to L88. Is that something that can be shared?

Yellow car, the story solid.

The Red car used as a drag race press car, became the LT-2, and that has not been found. That car was incapable of going into a Pool, being taken out, then sold to the public. I now think this Red car is the car that got crushed.

Then there is a car that looks silver or a lighter color in a black and white photo, that has a weird door handle or pull. Anyone venture a guess?

The dark car in the one picture, attempting to run that down.

The White (Otis car) next owner, bought two extra engine blocks, and sold one to the Blue car people. One engine he had came out of a serious accident damaged car, and the engine was about the only major component worth salvaging.

TCracingCA

Some of the guys here in this conversation have research and records accumulated over time, going back decades. Ed427, Rowdy, DKM, etc. I appreciate the input! I wish we could pull it all together, and I appreciate just the share that they give us anything at all. Most of my research history has not been related to Corvettes, but working and assisting with a vast broad array of marques, and I like racing history from 1960 to end of Century. I own a number of Corvettes (was a Porsche Owner for awhile, and owned two Z-28s, a Big Block Chevelle, etc.), so I do have just about everything in literature about Corvette. I chose to jump in and participate back in 2013, as prior I mostly sat on the sidelines. Doing this type of stuff, I run hot and cold on helping with all of this history, and in many areas I am green, need to play caught up, as many areas I never felt the need to probe, and research.

Yes some of the top Racers, like DX, Greenwood did use lesser cars here and there, building them up from more base models or wrecks, but they are famous cars.

Pboyd

A prior owner of the White Otis Chandler car dating back to at least 1988 was Dick Forando of D&M Corvette in Illinois. I believe he restored it. I saw it maybe at Bloomington that year, and it looked much too early to be real. He is an extremely knowledgeable guy, and he told me some story to justify its authenticity but I am not convinced.

TCracingCA

That is another link to the history.

Also just because I knew Otis, my Father had a long history as a Friend, if this car needs to come off the list, it needs to come off the list. PS while talking about it, I was invited back as we got into what documents he had, but I never made it back, and I never saw the documents. This guy had a number of Car Clubs touring, so his time was divided as he was trying to be host. What I picked up from him, was hopes of uncovering more about the car. I was more current on history surrounding these, than what I remember when jumping into this thread.

My opinion, the beginning of it being ZL-1 does appear shaky. The Gordon Wilson Dealership guy (name escapes me, but I wrote about him in the past) was a GM Executive and transitioned in his retirement to the Dealership. Thus he had connections. I think the car was in Zora's motor pool essentially as an early test vehicle. His interest more focused on the Club Racer, turn key Compeition model. I think that guy had this IRS guy that wanted something special and that coincided with the Company selling off cars, not needed anymore. It made it into this Jack guy's hands, and then sold again and again. I am looking for any race record, then M22 and J-56 probably discovered, and in pursuit of that, the ZL-1. When I said I had articles out now, I only have time to look for Orange car bullcrap and Blue car stuff, just a little about this White car I have freshly reviewed, to help my memory. Most of this stuff is just the same regurgitation of everything everyone else has written. Time to do this is not my friend, like I plan to go see the movie Ferrari this afternoon in a few hours, then Dinner at a Restaurant, haven't figured out which one yet.
The only chance for the White car is as a Pre-Production something or other. It just might be an L88 also. See what I can find.
And I had no reason to disbelieve someone of his caliber. He was a very humble guy, mostly soft spoken, except in business. He was a guy that would enjoy a conversation with anyone of any level. He just liked people, did alot of charity, he would look over what his paper was putting out. Ultimate car guy type!

TCracingCA

Killing some time before heading out.

Fred Frincke said he has 154 ZL-1s being built, 549 L-88s. Thus 69 went into Camaros, so the count seem wrong. Work on this later.

Info is all over the place, like I just found a denotation that the Daytona Yellow car was built June 30, 1969. It did its duty there at the Factory, problems and all. I wonder if a Vin was slapped on it later, to sell it. Some messed up history!

DKM-106

Here is a quick summary from my perspective on the ZL1 cars
1.Yellow car-Verified factory documentation that it is an RPO ZL1
2. White Otis Chandler car-No verified factory documentation that it was delivered as a RPO ZL1. Build date is way to early with internal GN documents that are available. Most likely an L88 raced with a ZL1 engine
3. Orange John Maher M40 convertible-No verified factory documentation supporting it is factory built ZL1. The car has been presented with multiple dealer order forms that have conflicting data, a tank sticker and black and white copies that do not match typical factory production paperwork and the car does not have the original motor. The car is listed in GM docs as an M40 L88 car.

In addition I have spoken to plant personnel that confirm that the Yellow coupe number 29219 was the first RPO ZL1 that left the plant. I stand on my comment that the second ZL1 was built after this car until I see original verified paperwork that proves otherwise.

DKM-106

Here is the internal GM doc listing the orange convertible as an L88. A side note, the green L88 M40 car that the Pennington's just bought from the original owner and is under restoration is listed as the first M40 L88 built.

TCracingCA

So the dude should have been satisfied with an L88. I am taking it down as a ZL-1 and up as an L88. Awesome share. I need to get back to my Public Vin Registry on C2. Been awhile since I added anything. This is the type of data, I truly appreciate. Sometimes don't know how you guys come up with these awesom finds.

n2h2o2

Here's another casting date for the archives....and another twist to the plot!
Not sure if you had this one already...

1969 ZL1 NOS block #3946052 (small 2) dated 3-1-69 with no stamping on front pad and stamped on underside by spin on oil filter of T 08 0. This was supposed to be a counter exchange block but was never run.

19corvette91

Here's two for sale in NJ. Not related to me. I know nothing about them.