Mr.L

My engine is up and running. Been on the road almost 2 years. I have only made one change. When I setup the motor at first it had a carb. I made the lifters bleed down to smooth out the idle. They clicked like solids under 1800 rpm. I had to change the piece inside the lifter that I modifyed and go back to regular setup. The reason being, when I changed to EFI it drove the knock sensor crazy. The computer smoothes out the idle now. It idles at 850 rpm. It revs to 6500 rpm.

I'm Batman

Jackson, I just got the instructions a few days ago. I'm at the "parts collection" stage right now. I'll post more info as I have it.

I'm Batman

I haven't had much luck looking for lifters on eBay. Have any of you been doing better?

Would these allow the use of the taller lifters on an SBC-I? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LT1-L...QQcmdZViewItem

Lionsden

Ebay Link

One Source shows the VL 138 to be the same as the GM 17120070 lifter

The composite retainers require the same lifters as the steel retainers.

jackson

With these #'s ... no reason you can't find lifters right in your home town.

Interchange info for TALL OEM & SHORT Conversion from 2005 Hylift Johnson-Topline lifter hardcopy catalog (HJ-T makes lifters for MANY name brand companies ... done so for many years):

TALL OEM
2.600" x .842" GM Hydraulic Roller
5.7L/350 OHV V8 1987-01
GM 17089852, 17109057, 17120090, 17120735, 17121905, 5233745, 5234670, 5234890, 5235498

AC Delco: HL100, HL105, HL106A, HL106B, HL112, HL119, HL120, HL123, HL124, HL128
Dana-Clevite: 213-1738
Eaton, SBI: VL115
Elgin: HL2148
Enginetech: L2148
Federal Mogul-Sealed Power: HT2148
Hylift Johnson-Topline: A-2148
Melling: JB2079
Moresa: HR355
Pioneer: VT2148
Stanadyne: 12355
TRW: VL230
VTI: RL230
Wolverine: HL2111
--------------------------------------------------------------
SHORT Conversion - OEM for 4 cyl & V6
2.230" x .842" GM Hydraulic Roller
2.2L/134 OHV 4 1994-03, 3.1L/189 OHV V6 1993-03, 3.4L/207 OHV V6 1996-03
GM 17102014, 17120070

AC Delco: HL118
Dana-Clevite: 213-1756
Eaton, SBI: VL138
Elgin: HL2270
Enginetech: L2270
Federal Mogul-Sealed Power: HT2270
Hylift Johnson-Topline: A-2270
Melling: JB2270
Moresa: HR376
Stanadyne: T0082
VTI: RL280

I'm Batman

Now THAT is good info! Thank you, Jackson!

cardo0

Like Tom454 said, no one has come forward with the max lift the lifter can make before it smacks the dog-bone or even comes out the bore enough to expose the oil galley grove on lifter and bite it like a saw blade. I read from Mr. L he is using the dogbone itself as a lifter bore and that not what it was designed to do - I have to suspect his reported lifter noise (clicked) when first installed which ads to the confusion though stated the lifter was that way because moded.

Lionsden, thx for coming forward and since ur a measurment tech did u measure the max lifter travel before contact with dogbone - plus a safety margin (say .050")? Should be easy to measure from the top of oil galley area on lifter to top of lifter compared to the top of lifter when on base cirle of cam.

Com'on guys. That's only 4 posts of successful V6 roller conversions and none of the major engine houses are selling it. Don't u think if anyone could make a buck on this then PAW, American Speed, Jaguar Engines - let alone the fruad-bay dealers - would be all over this???
Who wants to carve up a good 400" sb to learn the hard way - u can't use hi-lift cams with this lifter!

Good for Mr. L, toyvet1, Twin Turbo but since they don't identify themself in profile and 2 have tiny post count - do u want to waste a good 400" sb to try verify it? U ain't gonn'a be able to undo what that grinder will do.

This V6 roller conversion seems to get a little more credible with time but the fact is no legitimate business is marketing it and if was such a great deal why can't i order a block with it???

As for the advantages of a roller crowd, the rollers only start to make more pwr at 270* full duration cams. Yes, less than 270* a flat tappet will make more pwr on a short cam by design due to the lifter edge riding the flat tappet lobe ramps. And unless ur running over 9.5 c.r. then a long duration cam will do u no good.
Match ur cam to ur c.r. first guys - well thats my 2 pennys and take it or leave it.

cardo0

Shark Racer

Jackson - I'd like to think Tom454 was just bringing the thread to the top for you so someone who knew more than him could chime in, perhaps a bit tongue-in-cheek but helpful nonetheless.

This is an interesting thread - think I'll be switching to a roller cam in the 78 fairly soon.

...and I'll probably go aftermarket, after reading the cost comparison.

You can always go to a salvage yard and pick lifters out of V6 motors. Bring a mic to check lifter length and verify that they're relatively consistent and obv check for scoring.

What engines/cars could these lifters be found in?

I'm Batman

Those aftermarket link bars scare me...too many horror stories.

Some information I found on aftermarket cams for the 60degree V6:
Stage 1 NA - .305/.308 lobe lift, Stage 2 NA - .347/.349 lobe lift.

An LT1 cam has a .298/.306 lobe lift, and the LT4 cam has a .298/.299 lobe lift. If the lifters can go up to .349 in the original V6 application, they should be able to do the same in the V8...

I think the reason that no one pushes the conversion (and I have seen several sellers list the lifters as a V8 conversion) is because they're making tons of money on the horribly expensive conversion kits. Why sell a cheap alternative when everyone is buying the expensive one?

I've seen someone selling used lifters for a decent price...how long are these things supposed to last? If I could get the $90/set new, I'd go for it...$160+ is a bit more harsh.

Cardo0, check out the side-by-side picture on page 2 of the thread. The upper part of the lifter to the middle "collar" is almost the same on both lifters. The difference is in the length of the narrow portion from the "collar" to the roller pivot "cuff".

Tumarr

So, has anyone used a .560-.570 lift cam with this set up? Also could the v-6 lifters safely be revved up to say 6800 rpm? This might be a better alternative to running a mechanical roller on the street.

Lionsden

Depending on the cam base circle .575" to .600" with 1.5:1 rockers is at the max. 1.6:1 rockers will gain you more. The lift limitations will be similar to those that use the 350 oem rollers in a oem 350 roller block. The length of the flats are the same on both lifters.

I did.



Unless someone gets over zealous with a grinder and grinds through the block into the water passage the conversion can be removed.

This conversion isn't for everyone. There have been blocks ruined by, for lack of be better term, want-a-be mechanics. Each person should take a realistic assessment of their own mechanical ability. With the availablity of oem roller blocks and retro roller kits I'm not surprised that as you put it "legitimate business' " don't market it.

If you want a high lift hyd roller cam the retro roller are a better way to go. Now if you want moderate gain for an economic price this is a consideration. ZZ4 cams can be bought for around $125. My ebay GM lifters (new) under $120. Guides and retainer $15. The challenge to make it work -- priceless.

Twin_Turbo

What does my profile have to do with this??? Do I have to identify myself? .. Hi, I'm Marck and I look like this:



Just because no big company does it..that doesn't mean it's junk, doesn't work or else. The max lift depends on the base circle of your cam, if you can get a cam with a base circle at the bare minimum for the lifter to not create an oil leak on the underside and the top not to fall out of the dogbone...then you can get the max. lift out if it, which would be the distance to the dog bone with a little safety margin.

Why are companies not offering this? Well...maybe because there's not a whole lot of money to be made. You're just selling ordinary GM roller lifters, using an ordinary spider plate and dog bones..nothing fancy..all it takes is some old fashioned hot rodding. Also, if you were to offer this and lift figures of say .55 are attainable, then you just killed off a large portion of the market that is running an expensive steet setup w/ retrofit lifters...money money money..it always boils down to money.

Twin_Turbo

Hey Dan..you beat me to it

cardo0

Yes, thats where the issue is. That V6 lifter "collar" should not contact the dog-bone. That "collar" needs to stay to stay inside the lifter bore. It should not cross the lifter-bore/dogbone interface or ur asking for metal removale the hard way.
Well i'm no expert on roller lifters and could even have this backwards and that "collar" may need to stay inside the dog-bone and not contact the lifter bore on downward motion - i honestly don't know but the again i don't expect anyone else here does.

It apparently it can work for a period of time but again no legitimate business is selling it. And i don't see how anyone could possibly grind the lifter bosses by hand using eyesight accuratly enough to get a square enough surface to allow the dog-bone to align with the lifter bore enough to pass through without interference.

Batman, i too would like to convert to a roller for the price of a flat tappet but the more i look closer at this the more i find wrong with it. When i consider the cost of finding, buying, cleaning, decking, align honing, boring a block only to take the chance of ruining it - let alone all my own free time - i'll gladly look for hp somewhere else. But i wish u luck if u try and hope to read of ur success as i too could find a application for this.

Batman, run this by ur machine shop that does ur block work. See if they'll measure the max V6 lifter stroke let alone machine the block for u.

cardo0

Lionsden

You noob---- with 12,000 plus posts.

Nice picture! Super Steve started it!? He is not far from me. Say the word. I could pay him a visit.

Oh, and you said it better.

Twin_Turbo

do I have 12,000+ posts? wow...I had no idea.

yeah steve started messing with the pic but it was that darned desertdawg that did that

I'm Batman

We'd never have any aftermarket parts with the "it's evil if a big corporation isn't doing it" attitude. Good thing you weren't around to dissuade people like Vic Edelbrock...

GasketDude

Light grinding of the block is not going to damage the block. And the "grinding" is actually clearancing where the lifter bore meets the block. There is no grinding at the top lifter bore.

The "collar" of the roller lifter will never come out of the bore during normal operation. High lift cams could cause the lifter to contact the lifter retainer bar depending on the lift amount and the block casting itself. Remember, this area was never machined on these early blocks and the tolerence could be an issue on some blocks.

One ".580" lift cam, which is measured at the valve, is not the actual lift of the lobe. Which in this case was only .341" (XR300HR).

Last, this lifter does not have the feed hole required to lube the rockers (correctly) and some modification is required. No manufacture is going to do that modification and be held liable, they would rather build a completely new unit (or at least have it made for them).

Let's not stiffle hot rodder inginuity. And yes, there ARE some here who have a clue how it works.

Later.

Lionsden

The GM 17120070 do oil the rocker arms without any modifications. Internally the 17120070 are identical to the 350 counterpart.

Tumarr

So the v-6 lifters will not send any oil to the rockers as is? did I read you correctly? what modification do you need to do to them so they will? I never heard of this problem.