...Roger...

Just to be clear,the pump rubber has a coil spring stuffed in under the rubber,correct ? ( you can't really see the coil spring if this is correct ) Where can this pump be purchased ? Thanks Lars

...Roger...

Years ago we had to cut the pump shaft off with a hacksaw.

lars

You've missed the point of this posting: The point, as shown in all the photos I've posted, is that you can't tell from looking at a pump if it's good or bad. You have to test it as I stated earlier.

The "skirt spring" pump is coincidental: The majority of the skirt spring pumps I tested failed and ended up in the trash can: about half of the pumps shown in the "fail" photo have the springs under the rubber cup.

I don't know who the supplier was for the good pump I found in my inventory, but I need to find one who delivers consistently good pumps.

...Roger...

Here is a link to a pump that TopGun posted awhile back , it "says" it is alcohol resistant.
http://allcarbs.com/detail.php?pid=9...=67&stt=0&gb=2

Paul L

Let us know.

Cliff R

This problem extends to every rebuild kit out there from any source, unless that kit contains the latest design fluoroelastomer accellerator pump seal.

There are at least 5 grades of Viton/fluoroelastomer pump seals out there that I know of. The one shown in Lar's original post is for the early design pump, and a "soft" blue design. It will swell in contact with ethanol, and fail as he has noted. This process may take several weeks or even months, but they will still fail.

NAPA actually sells kit with the old rubber seals on them, which swell up and bind/stick/fall off in about 30 minutes! Check out kit number 2-5514, for the 70-74 Pontiac carburetors, it will have a POS white plastic pump and long-lip rubber seal in it!

We have combated this problem by using the highest quality fluoroestormer (Viton) seal available. We only use the late style pumps with the garter spring under the seal as well, and our pumps have a crimped on retainer to keep them from pulling apart, another common problem as the plastic can soften some in contact with these new fuels.

A couple more things to note. Not all States require that service stations advertise at the pumps that their fuel contain ethanol.

Judging by the sales of our pumps and HP kits, ethanol is just about everywhere, including Marina's. In the last two years, sales of Marine carburetor kits has increased from about half a dozen kits a year, to that many a month!

Not a single day goes by we don't get a call or email from someone about accellerator pumps they installed from over the counter kits failing!

The problem is geniune, but not limited to parts contained in kits from NAPA. I've never pursued a formal complaint against them, as they help my parts sales considerably! It is unlikely they will step up with better parts, as carburetor parts are slow sellers these days, and the major supplier of these parts has millions of dollars in old stock parts to get rid of, before they would even consider upgrading to the correct parts/materials to combat this problem.....Cliff

noonie

Good to see you over here Cliff. You know there is another world away from Pontiacs

Being in the Venice of America, I've heard all the moaning about e10 at marinas, even eating the old resin in glass gas tanks etc.
Florida is all e10+, but any car over 25 years can legally use non ethanol gas, but the only place to buy it is at a marina, lucky for me, it's close. Pain in the butt, but I also use the regular premium in small engines as Stihl recommends.

So are all the cups sourced overseas these days? So much volume stuff is.
We used to do some production stuff, but for about the last 10 years, we just do the prototypes, then they get copied overseas, then we get the first few production runs back to repair until they get it right over there. Friend just sold a Kitamura 4 axis with tool changer working perfectly for 2500 bucks. The new change in America.

Cliff R

I buy my accl pumps from the same supplier everyone else does, then remove the imported POS blue seal, and install one that will hold up to E-85!

The pump then gets new springs, custom wound to our spec's.

I like the new fuel, aside for absorbing moisture and evaporating away quickly, overall it's really not that bad. My daily driver runs nearly into the 10's on the stuff (89 octane) in full street trim, with a smooth idle 455cid engine right at 11 to 1 compression!

We get some grumbling on occassion from folks who have to crank/pump the pedal when they only start up their cars every 3-4 months. I would imagine any vented fuel delivery device would be empty after that long, this new fuel doesn't stick around very long....Cliff

Cliff R

Just a quick side note. You will see some folks post that they have not had any troubles with this new fuel, the old "I've been building carbs for decades with this kit and that kit, no issues, etc, etc". These folks are being quite honest.

Even so, most of this comes from the fact that their old rubber pump seals are near the end of their life cycle. New rubber is very soft, and in contact with this new fuel fails immediately. Rubber that's been in service for a while is much harder, and resists swelling in contact with the new fuel. Eventually, however, it will crack/break.

The best quality Viton seal is impervious to the new fuels. They will be very dark blue, consistant thickness, and pretty rigid (garter spring required). If the blue seal is lighter blue, thin lip, and/or "soft", it's not going to hold up.....Cliff

aussiejohn

Cliff R,

Thanks for chiming in here. I'm glad that you answered my question in an earlier post on this thread. So I take it that anybody who orders an accelerator pump from you will have the dark blue Viton rubber fitted?

Now to the float material. I'm guessing that the ethanol based fuels will also attack the nitrofil (?) that floats are made of, so do you have a better material or would you advise everyone to use a brass float?

I don't think that any carburettor components vendor in Australia knows anything about this, let alone cares about it, so us antipodeans will have to buy from the USA if we want our cars to run correctly. So we might as well buy from someone who not only knows about the problem but cares enough to provide a superior product range to counteract the problem. And tell people about it.

Thanks for your input. Can I still contact you at www.cliffsqjet.com if I need to buy parts?

Regards from Down Under

aussiejohn

Cliff R

We only use the later design accellerator pumps with the Viton seal and garter spring. Our pumps come as a complete set, with both springs and the retainer. Our new website is: http://www.cliffshighperformance.com/

What we don't know is what else in the fuel system will be effected by 10 percent ethanol? So far my fuel lines are fine, with the exception of one length of rubber hose in the return line which started leaking recently. I use 8AN lines/fittings everyplace else, can't remember if it's Parker or Russel hose, but it's the NHRA approved stuff, and has been in place almost 10 years......Cliff

...Roger...

Thanks Cliff , sounds like we now have a place to buy good Q jet parts.

Paul L

Cliff,
It is indeed a pleasure to see you participating on the Forum and contributing to Lars' excellent analyses of accelerator pumps.

My picture here (and the one above in the thread) shows a red version that I purchased from you last year. It is being used by a friend. I guess from my reading here that the latest version is equipped with a blue material. While my 1974 is running well at the moment it would not hurt to have a spare. Thus this morning I have ordered one with several air horn gaskets (I believe you call them bowl cover gaskets).

Cliff R

Depending on exactly when it was purchased, it may not have all the upgrades, as we'ved added the crimped collar and upgraded the seal several times in the past 2 years. What we have now is working flawlessly, zero problems to date.


"Now to the float material. I'm guessing that the ethanol based fuels will also attack the nitrofil (?) that floats are made of, so do you have a better material or would you advise everyone to use a brass float?"

The latest design closed cell nitrophyl floats hold up fine in ethanol, and I use and prefer them to brass floats.

Brass floats can and will leak at the soldered joints. We tried to use them about 10 years ago for carburetors built here, and had a couple leak and sink to the bottom of the bowl. We immediately went back to the nitro floats, and not a single problem one since.

I test ALL of the parts we sell by putting them in a sealed can of fuel, and checking them periodically. I have one of our latest pumps, with the good seal soaking in fuel now for about a year, and it is in perfect condition. A pump beside it (from our parts supplier/same pump found in many over the counter kits) with the softer blue seal will NOT go down into a pump bore without binding up!.......Cliff

Artsvette73

Thanks Cliff for your time from you very busy schedule to offer your input. Glad to see you made it here......Thanks Jack

lars

Sounds like all the Q-Jet builders are seeing the same issues - I recently talked to Henry Olsen out at Ole's Carbs in CA, too, and he's had the same frustrations. To be fair, it's not just Echlin products as Cliff states - the bad pumps can be contained in any kit. But it's a shame to see major suppliers selling components that are known to be bad. In the meantime, it sounds like Cliff, Henry and I will be soaking and testing a lot of pumps before we install them...

Lars

turtlevette

I'm curious if anyone has soaked these parts in straight alcohol?

...Roger...

Tequila ? I can see it now , every drink at Lar's bar served with a complimentary pump cup.

'75

Would a double come with two?

mrvette

Then there is old unknowing dummy GENE, who working on a FORTY year old class C motor home...chevvy van 30, 350 SBC engine, needed a Qjet on it.....the one on it was a worn out POS from 40 years of whatEVER....

so on my shop wall, has been hanging on a nail for 13 years here in Florida, and another ten? up north...call it 20 years.....maybe 25?....anyway, I pulled it down, noted the throttle shaft was tight....

I know Lars don't like the Carter versions, but I LOVE Carter carbs, so I note it's a Carter...oh well, I pull it apart, there is a BRASS float,

I take the 3 sections apart and wash out with carb cleaner, blast with a air jet.....stick 'NOS' gaskets from some random blue/white box kit on the shelf.....and put it on the engine.....

starts and runs perfectly accel pump and all.....



only reason I ever kept that Qj was that it was complete and looked clean....so some 25 years later, there it is, on the wife's camper project I am 'resto-modding'......