melrose

Hey guys I am trying to find a new market for our C4 swap headers. How many of you would be interested in this type of build?
C4 Lsx pro street on the cheap-
This isn't a daily driver, but more so someones hobby car they could have fun with for a reasonable amount of cash;

•Acquire or use your own thrashed C4
•acquire LSx motor- truck or alum block
•Rip the dash and hand fab one with analog gauges (save time trying to interface C4 dash with later ECU)
•Pull out as much useless crap as possible i.e. a/c, heat, and so forth
•MAybe some lightweight body parts i.e. hood, roof, lexan rear window.
•Lowered
•sinister satin black paint job
•loud exhaust

$3000 car
$800 motor and ECU
$500 guages and dash material
$650 coated headers
$2000 adpater plates, power steer, clutch, bellhous, fluids, misc
$400 wiring or paying electrician
$1500 min head work, cam, tune, maybe a little spray into TB
=$8850 (figure 10K for the other nickel and dime crap)

I tried being as realistic as possible, but this should get you a low 12's car for about 8-10K if you shop smart.

Before you guys say just go buy a C5, or dump 4k into an LT, please keep in mind that's not the point and nearly not as much fun.

__________________
Melrose T-Top Int. http://www.melroset-tops.com
Melrose Headers http://www.melroseheaders.com
815-758-2783 Melrose Int.
100 W Ellwalk, Cortland, IL 60112

pr0zac

seems like alot of work for a stripped out car. if you have that much of a hard on for an ls1 you can easily buy an f body for 5-8k in decent shape that wasn't stripped out..

melrose

Prozac- Thanks for the kind interest in my thread. I guess I didn't make myself completely clear where I said "acquire or use your own thrashed C4". There is growing market of L98 cars out there needing motors. Not all of these guys want to ditch their cars. Some simply turn these cars into their "hobby" car because they already bought a C5 or 6.

I could do that , but how would that help me sell C4 swap headers?

mnstrlt1

Melrose-

I'm a bit lost with the OP. Are you quoting the price for the do-it-yourselfer OR you guys completing the swap for the customer?

Disclaimer before I go on my rant-

I really like you guys as a vendor. I think you guys make great quality components for the corvette community. I've heard nothing but good news from the guys that have used your products.

However (rant on):

I don't understand why we've got a handful of vendors that make random components for the LS-x swap, kind of a half-a$$ attempt if you as me.

I can only imagine having a c4 sitting in the average shade-tree mechanic's garage with the original guts pulled out of it and the Lsx sitting in the engine bay (not even attached of course) BUT "at least" it's got a nice set of headers on it! lol...

there are (and now have been for several years) a number of vendors that offer COMPLETE ls-x swap kits for none-GM platform cars (miata, rx7, fiero, 240sx, etc.) for the life of me I can't understand why we can't get the same support?

*if* someone (plug vendor name here) would step up and offer a COMPLETE kit, I think these things would be flying off the shelves.

more importantly, offering to merge the two harnesses or sell a harness that would allow for a seemless interface between the c4 and the Ls-x. (if just this item existed, i would be much more inclined to pursue an Ls-x swap).

The guys that do offer some sort of kit typically try to get around the creature comforts (AC, cruise, etc.) Making an already impractical car even more impractical.

bdw18_123

melrose

mnstrlt1,
Thanks for the input. Curiousity of why we don't sell more of these is kinda why I started this thread.

To clear up any confusion, no we are not offering to complete a swap for the customer. I was just throwing out build ideas to help gather interest.

We were comandeered by Speedhound and a couple others to make the C4 and C3 swap headers after they had a handful of customers ready to buy. It doesn't really cost us anything to offer them. I was just curious as to what I could do to spark more interst, hence my idea for a budget type build.

You raise good points as to the electrical difficulties which I think scares a lot of people away.

As fas as offering a complete kit. There is no way I would consider that with all the negative feedback. We don't have the capabilities here of creating an interchange loom, so that would have to be farmed out, and the time involved with that and the different year apps. would end up being very costly. In addition to that you have trans options and so forth.

Thanks
Chris

Redvette_22

I recently purchased a completely stock 89 C4 that has 170,000 miles on it and needs an engine overhaul and I wanted to install an LS1 into it but found no help. I agree with the previous statements that with all the vendors on here, somebody should make a "kit" for the install, or at least offer a "kit" format that can be purchased in stages. I mean by "stages" if a person does not have say 10k lying around but has the car already, they can purchase the parts to install the engine, then later the headers and exhaust and finally later the harness with the ECM/PCM. This way the "nickel and dime" stuff that always finds it's way into a job like this, can be purchased without killing anybody's budget, or killing the project before completion like so many times you hear about.

The article that Corvette Fever started either never finished or you just can't find all the volumnes for the LSx swap into a C4. If anybody has all that info I'm sure it would be appreciated if it's listed here. I also think that for the cars with the "digital" dash they go to "Vettaid.com" and see his clusters using AutoMeter gauges, they are a "plug-n-play" setup. This will get rid of the problematic digital clusters and give you a reliable analog unit for not much more than a repair of the digital cluster.

Again however, we still an accurate part and price list for the project so like so many other "major" jobs, it does not deflate the person doing the change before they can finish.

subtlez28

The build plan sounds exactly like my 84 LS1 project... lowered, HVAC delete, T-56, gutted interior, aluminum dash w auto-meters, and I'm even considering flat black. It is intended to be a street legal road race car.

Sadly that also sounds like my car... The project kinda stalled and I don't even have my pretty headers on yet...

However, with the age and variety of engines these C4s came with a plug and play kit is no easy feat. I was largely driven to the idea by the LS1 RX7s and Miatas. I just wanted an American car. I figured an 84 Vette would be fairly light and drastically out-handle my current 02 Z28.

This thread is a good idea though. You can have a very fast car for ~$10k. But it is not a quick, easy, or practical process.

All that said, I'm hopeful for a group purchase on the headers. I need some, and like most car guys I am a cheap bastard.

dfe1

I'm sure "Murphy" wasn't thinking about magazine project cars when he came up with his law-- Anything that can go wrong will go wrong-- but the shoe really fits. Due to a variety of circumstances, we just seemed to run into one problem/delay after another. I don't recall when the last "Project C4orce" editorial ran, but it's been quite a while.

However, there is some light at the end of the tunnel. We finally got the car to a dyno, and it put out 350 horsepower at the wheels-- pretty impressive for a mildly reworked 5.3-liter engine with a full exhaust, including catalytic converters. The test results will appear in an upcoming issue of Corvette Fever-- along with a list of parts and prices.

Our original goal with Project C4orce was to complete the car for $15,000. One of the problems with this particular project is that we were trying to address a number of different scenarios as parts requirements can vary dramatically from one car to another. In trying to cover a variety of possible required equipment combinations, the original focus of the project got blurred. But I can tell you that the engine swap was probably the easiest and least expensive part of the project. A pair of motor mount adapter plates from Speedhound Parts and a set of headers from Melrose is all you need to get an LS engine in a C4. If you start with a truck engine, you'll have to replace the intake manifold and oil pan for the necessary clearance, and you may want to install a Corvette or F-body water pump, but that's about it aside from a few nickel and dime pieces.

I'll be happy to provide more specifics if anyone would like them.

Dave

melrose

I'm gonna be a bit blunt here with no offense intended, and I am hoping someone will come on in and back me up. This really isn't that hard of a job if you want to sit down and do it. We built 15-20 C4 racecars back in the 90's and had to figure everything out on our own from maching plastic suspension bushings to designing fuel cells with scavange boxes. Necessity is the mother of invention. The people that really want to do it usually do.

melrose

Call me when you get time. 815-758-2783 Chris @ Melrose

pr0zac

true there is a bunch of l98's out there that are due for a rebuild or even more.. but what good is a stripped down car with an aluminum dash unless you are 16 and don't know any better or just looking for a track car. i am willing to bet that the people that are looking to replace their engines are not looking to throw out their dash and half the electrical parts that make it what it is. i know you are trying to sell your product. but as you well know there is alot more to swapping an lsx then mounts and headers.

mnstrlt1

The above simply underlines the issue that the average hobbiest with have to deal with. If you think it's hard to find a reputable shop that can interface the two harnesses successfully (retaining the existing creature comforts and traction control) AND you're in the automotive industry, try doing it as the "average" hobbiest! it's dam near impossible to find any local shops (regardless of geographical location) this is willing to tackle such an interface. This spells dead-end for me.

pr0zac

if i had the funds i would put an lsx into an older car like a c3 any day of the week and twice on sunday but all the hurdles that you have with the c4 it doesn't seem worth it.. even if the car is a basket case.

mnstrlt1

this is exactly why you can't put the engine swap into a "simple" list like the one in the OP.

The truck engine line is MUCH cheper than the f-body and y-body line. BUT, as you've stated, you've got to be heavily educated in the Gen-III engine line to really get the correct parts for this build.

you'll need the f-body intake/injectors/TB (for the cable driven setup) and all the provisions associated with the intake.

you'll need the oil pan from the later (c6) corvette (not the c5 oil pan which has an unusual shape), and even then the oil pump or at least the pickup tube will need to be replaced (from the truck line).

you'll then have to deal with the front-end assembly (belt-driven components, brackets, water-pump) beleive it or not the Front wheel drive Gen-III engines have a remote mount water pump! so you can spend days looking at part numbers to mix and match.

I've even seen some engine swap suppliers (www.v8monster.com) that will modify the k-member to accomidate the oil-pan and belt driven components (for none corvette platforms). I make this a point because the AC compressor on the Ls-x's are located on the lower passenger side causing clearance issues.

*****edit*****

so yeah, engine mounts and headers and you're set... the radiator inlet and outlet on the engine wont line up with the stock c4 stuff, the transmission (if you have a ZF6) you're out of luck... no such kit at the moment. or you use the t-56 and make a bracket to accept the c-beam....

again I apologize to MElrose and the OP, but these things need to be stated if anyone is considering a swap and thinks they "just" need headers and engine mount adaptor brackets.

melrose

I'm 36 and think it would be very cool. Your label "track car" is a matter of perspective. I drove my chevelle for a year, w/o the creature comforts you seem to be concerned about, I also had a '53 Ford flathead that nothing worked in, and three on the tree, with seat springs poking into my ***. That was one of the funnest cars I ever owned, and I know there is a lot more to this swap than what I mentioned, but that's the way it goes with a lot of things.

pr0zac

i am 30 and i can't recall ever hearing of a chevelle or a 53 ford having any options supported by an l98 c4's ccm.

Redvette_22

I appreciate your statement but, you have a shop to contend with these type of things, 99.9% of the people on this forum do not, nor do I. If the project is begun under "those" pretenses then almost all will never see completion, it's just to expensive !! If on the other hand you have a "good" idea of the parts necessary it is not such a big deal. There will always be problems with a job like this but when you can't throw unlimited money at the job then you have to get "all your ducks in a row" first, don't you think?

mnstrlt1

I use to think that having a stripped car for the street was bada$$... but after spending 15 years in Arizona, I've changed my mind.

Air-conditioning is COOL (pun intended, lol)... insulation and functioning power equipment is cool...

I've seen enough of my less intelligent friends play off a gutted "hatchback" in the dead middle of summer as being "alright".... the idea of a heat stroke just isn't appealing to me! lol...

steve40th

Why are there LSx engine kits for a Solstice and Miatas??????????????????????????
C4 NO?????????????
Just make a kit. Why is the aftermarket so wishy washy on the C4 Vette