Coolant flush...Water boiling...Little help!
06-27-2010, 11:48 PM
#1
Advanced
Thread Starter
Coolant flush...Water boiling...Little help!
So the project started last week when i replaced all the hoses and took the radiator completely out of the car. I flushed it out and put everything back in the car.
Now I filled the system up wtih just regular water to check for leaks and so on. I ran it around for a bit and came back and drained it. Still brown...but that was expected.
So then I drained it all out again and filled it up again with just water. This time it was a little hotter out and the coolant temp got up to about 210 right when I pulled it into the driveway. Well I turned off the engine and got out and i could hear it boiling/bubbling into the expansion tank. That brings on the first question...Is this ok? I thought even with just water it should not boil because of the amplified pressure in the system...Bad radiator cap?
Anyways my plan was to continue running around getting it up to running temp (200 degrees) and draining with water until I got a clearer fluid coming out when I drained it. Then I would do the final drain with the PEAK cleaner and such. Followed by a just water flush and then 50/50 coolant mix to call it done. Thoughts?
Now I filled the system up wtih just regular water to check for leaks and so on. I ran it around for a bit and came back and drained it. Still brown...but that was expected.
So then I drained it all out again and filled it up again with just water. This time it was a little hotter out and the coolant temp got up to about 210 right when I pulled it into the driveway. Well I turned off the engine and got out and i could hear it boiling/bubbling into the expansion tank. That brings on the first question...Is this ok? I thought even with just water it should not boil because of the amplified pressure in the system...Bad radiator cap?
Anyways my plan was to continue running around getting it up to running temp (200 degrees) and draining with water until I got a clearer fluid coming out when I drained it. Then I would do the final drain with the PEAK cleaner and such. Followed by a just water flush and then 50/50 coolant mix to call it done. Thoughts?
06-28-2010, 12:05 AM
#2
Perfectly normal. You could check the level (in the expansion tank!) when the coolant stops coming out and then again when it is cold. You should find that the system sucked back in the coolant that it spit into the expansion tank.
06-28-2010, 12:10 AM
#3
Advanced
Thread Starter
Should I remove the thermostat so that the water circulates the whole system? I dont think it will get to 180 with that cooler garden hose water coming through the whole time...
06-28-2010, 12:22 AM
#4
Ok so i just realized that there is a t fitting from a flush kit installed on the heater hose line. Basically i just hook my garden hose up to that thing, open up the radiator drain plug, and fire it up and let it run...
Should I remove the thermostat so that the water circulates the whole system? I dont think it will get to 180 with that cooler garden hose water coming through the whole time...
Should I remove the thermostat so that the water circulates the whole system? I dont think it will get to 180 with that cooler garden hose water coming through the whole time...
I can't back this up with data or anecdotes but I personally wouldn't run an engine while pumping cold water into it from the tap.
When I did the big flush that you are doing I did the old trick of replacing the knock sensors with pipe fittings with barbs connected to vinyl hose connected to the garden hose and disco'd the lower radiator hose and let it run until clear.
I know I will take crap for this admission but when I got the 94 back in 96 it had brown coolant that looked like someone put orange stuff in. So I did the flush probably overboard and even ran the engine up to temp with a cup of Cascade and pure water in the system before I rinsed and filled up with the premix that works with either green or orange. I've used that premix since and never had such a mess come out as that first time. I have wondered if some of that brown stuff was the factory fill of barsleak that GM put in.
06-28-2010, 07:57 AM
#5
Racer
Interesting feedback.
I am in the process of flushing my engine out before replacing water pump (leaking),opti, etc. I followed the FSM all day and after 4 complete cycles still had dark brown water come out. So I am looking at another method.
I was thinking about replacing KS with pipe fitting and hose but I thought the engine had to be running in order to flush properly.....maybe not? Just remove t-stat and lower radiator hose and then put garden hose into surge tank? Why not put hose in t-stat opening or since I am replacing water pump, put hose in wate pump opening? I assume in the end that I would completely flush with distilled water immediately after turning off garden hose. While doing all this, I will remove radiator to clean out all debris. With radiator out, I was going to pour distilled water through it until it comes out clear.
1 cup of Cascade? Never heard of this idea. Seems like it would take a long time to flush the soap out......is that a concern?
I am in the process of flushing my engine out before replacing water pump (leaking),opti, etc. I followed the FSM all day and after 4 complete cycles still had dark brown water come out. So I am looking at another method.
I was thinking about replacing KS with pipe fitting and hose but I thought the engine had to be running in order to flush properly.....maybe not? Just remove t-stat and lower radiator hose and then put garden hose into surge tank? Why not put hose in t-stat opening or since I am replacing water pump, put hose in wate pump opening? I assume in the end that I would completely flush with distilled water immediately after turning off garden hose. While doing all this, I will remove radiator to clean out all debris. With radiator out, I was going to pour distilled water through it until it comes out clear.
1 cup of Cascade? Never heard of this idea. Seems like it would take a long time to flush the soap out......is that a concern?
06-28-2010, 09:02 AM
#6
Advanced
Thread Starter
I am going to go ahead and just hook up the garden hose to the heater hose T flush kit adapter, remove the radiator cap, and fire it up...I suppose this will flush it ha ha.
I still do not understand how it flushes the whole system with the thermostat in there, because it is not going to get hot enough...
I still do not understand how it flushes the whole system with the thermostat in there, because it is not going to get hot enough...
06-28-2010, 09:22 AM
#7
Team Owner
The bubbling sound could indicate an air pocket in the cooling system. Because the earlier C4's don't have bleed valves like the LT1 cars, you do have to "burp" the system to remove air pockets.
One easy way is to simply raise the front of the car so the fill hole is as high as possible. You may need to run the engine for a couple temp cycles (start, get to operating temp and cool back down) to get any air out.
The other way is to fill the system, and watch the coolant level. When the 'stat opens, keep filling with coolant. When the level stabilizes, run the engine at around 1200 RPM and top off the coolant to the top. Replace the cap and watch the coolant temp to make sure it doesn't get hot. If it does, let the coolant temps come down to around 100 degrees and slowly remove the cap and repeat.
I've never heard of using soaps/detergents either. I would think that chemicals in that stuff could eventually cause problems. Although GM did not recommend the use of cooling system cleaners, you could use a cleaner made for cooling systems if the coolant that comes out is very dirty.
Be careful using the tee flushing deal. If you turn on the garden hose with too much pressure, you can cause problems. Cooling systems only generate 12-16 psi of pressure. Most home water systems can be at 30 psi or more! Don't use any more water pressure than is needed to push the old coolant out than what the water pump would do.
To do a complete flush, you still need to get rid of the water in the block. Removing the knock sensor is the way to get rid of everything so that you can add a 50-50 mix of coolant and water. Use a good grade of ethylene glycol (green) coolant and distilled water for the fill.
One easy way is to simply raise the front of the car so the fill hole is as high as possible. You may need to run the engine for a couple temp cycles (start, get to operating temp and cool back down) to get any air out.
The other way is to fill the system, and watch the coolant level. When the 'stat opens, keep filling with coolant. When the level stabilizes, run the engine at around 1200 RPM and top off the coolant to the top. Replace the cap and watch the coolant temp to make sure it doesn't get hot. If it does, let the coolant temps come down to around 100 degrees and slowly remove the cap and repeat.
I've never heard of using soaps/detergents either. I would think that chemicals in that stuff could eventually cause problems. Although GM did not recommend the use of cooling system cleaners, you could use a cleaner made for cooling systems if the coolant that comes out is very dirty.
Be careful using the tee flushing deal. If you turn on the garden hose with too much pressure, you can cause problems. Cooling systems only generate 12-16 psi of pressure. Most home water systems can be at 30 psi or more! Don't use any more water pressure than is needed to push the old coolant out than what the water pump would do.
To do a complete flush, you still need to get rid of the water in the block. Removing the knock sensor is the way to get rid of everything so that you can add a 50-50 mix of coolant and water. Use a good grade of ethylene glycol (green) coolant and distilled water for the fill.
06-28-2010, 09:28 AM
#8
Advanced
Thread Starter
The bubbling sound could indicate an air pocket in the cooling system. Because the earlier C4's don't have bleed valves like the LT1 cars, you do have to "burp" the system to remove air pockets.
One easy way is to simply raise the front of the car so the fill hole is as high as possible. You may need to run the engine for a couple temp cycles (start, get to operating temp and cool back down) to get any air out.
The other way is to fill the system, and watch the coolant level. When the 'stat opens, keep filling with coolant. When the level stabilizes, run the engine at around 1200 RPM and top off the coolant to the top. Replace the cap and watch the coolant temp to make sure it doesn't get hot. If it does, let the coolant temps come down to around 100 degrees and slowly remove the cap and repeat.
I've never heard of using soaps/detergents either. I would think that chemicals in that stuff could eventually cause problems. Although GM did not recommend the use of cooling system cleaners, you could use a cleaner made for cooling systems if the coolant that comes out is very dirty.
Be careful using the tee flushing deal. If you turn on the garden hose with too much pressure, you can cause problems. Cooling systems only generate 12-16 psi of pressure. Most home water systems can be at 30 psi or more! Don't use any more water pressure than is needed to push the old coolant out than what the water pump would do.
To do a complete flush, you still need to get rid of the water in the block. Removing the knock sensor is the way to get rid of everything so that you can add a 50-50 mix of coolant and water. Use a good grade of ethylene glycol (green) coolant and distilled water for the fill.
One easy way is to simply raise the front of the car so the fill hole is as high as possible. You may need to run the engine for a couple temp cycles (start, get to operating temp and cool back down) to get any air out.
The other way is to fill the system, and watch the coolant level. When the 'stat opens, keep filling with coolant. When the level stabilizes, run the engine at around 1200 RPM and top off the coolant to the top. Replace the cap and watch the coolant temp to make sure it doesn't get hot. If it does, let the coolant temps come down to around 100 degrees and slowly remove the cap and repeat.
I've never heard of using soaps/detergents either. I would think that chemicals in that stuff could eventually cause problems. Although GM did not recommend the use of cooling system cleaners, you could use a cleaner made for cooling systems if the coolant that comes out is very dirty.
Be careful using the tee flushing deal. If you turn on the garden hose with too much pressure, you can cause problems. Cooling systems only generate 12-16 psi of pressure. Most home water systems can be at 30 psi or more! Don't use any more water pressure than is needed to push the old coolant out than what the water pump would do.
To do a complete flush, you still need to get rid of the water in the block. Removing the knock sensor is the way to get rid of everything so that you can add a 50-50 mix of coolant and water. Use a good grade of ethylene glycol (green) coolant and distilled water for the fill.
06-28-2010, 10:02 AM
#9
Racer
I am answering this based on my experience with a '94 LT1. I forget what year yours is....
Two knock sensors (KS). One on either side of engine near the oil pan. Both have a small metal shield protecting them. The shield is attached to the oil pan bolts (two per shield). The left shield also has a rubber grommet attached to it for holding some wires in place. Use a 7/16" socket to remove the shield. There will be a connector on the KS....remove that....then I think it is a 7/8" socket to remove KS. Beware that water will come out quickly and a lot of it. Make sure your engine temp is somewhat cooled off or you could get burned. My experience over the week end was that 1 gallon of water come out of radiator and 1 gallon came out of each KS. Basically three drain plugs and each accounts for 1/3 the fluid in the system. I think the KS threads may have a special coating from the factory that is required for electrical reasons......so, I am not clear on the protocol for when to replace them.....may want to check on that....I am also interested.
06-28-2010, 10:05 AM
#10
Advanced
Thread Starter
I am answering this based on my experience with a '94 LT1. I forget what year yours is....
Two knock sensors (KS). One on either side of engine near the oil pan. Both have a small metal shield protecting them. The shield is attached to the oil pan bolts (two per shield). The left shield also has a rubber grommet attached to it for holding some wires in place. Use a 7/16" socket to remove the shield. There will be a connector on the KS....remove that....then I think it is a 7/8" socket to remove KS. Beware that water will come out quickly and a lot of it. Make sure your engine temp is somewhat cooled off or you could get burned. My experience over the week end was that 1 gallon of water come out of radiator and 1 gallon came out of each KS. Basically three drain plugs and each accounts for 1/3 the fluid in the system. I think the KS threads may have a special coating from the factory that is required for electrical reasons......so, I am not clear on the protocol for when to replace them.....may want to check on that....I am also interested.
Two knock sensors (KS). One on either side of engine near the oil pan. Both have a small metal shield protecting them. The shield is attached to the oil pan bolts (two per shield). The left shield also has a rubber grommet attached to it for holding some wires in place. Use a 7/16" socket to remove the shield. There will be a connector on the KS....remove that....then I think it is a 7/8" socket to remove KS. Beware that water will come out quickly and a lot of it. Make sure your engine temp is somewhat cooled off or you could get burned. My experience over the week end was that 1 gallon of water come out of radiator and 1 gallon came out of each KS. Basically three drain plugs and each accounts for 1/3 the fluid in the system. I think the KS threads may have a special coating from the factory that is required for electrical reasons......so, I am not clear on the protocol for when to replace them.....may want to check on that....I am also interested.
I still think that if I just remove the thermostat and hook up the garden hose to the t-fitting on the upper heater hose and fire it up with the radiator cap off it will flush the entire system rather than having to pull the KS...
06-28-2010, 10:48 AM
#11
Racer
Let me know how it goes.....I hesitated to remove my KS also; but after I did it and saw how much fluid came out of the block, I was glad....it was not that difficult. The hardest part was getting the car off the ground.
I would also recommend running about 10 gallons of distilled water through your system after you are done with the garden hose.
I would also recommend running about 10 gallons of distilled water through your system after you are done with the garden hose.
06-28-2010, 11:44 AM
#12
Racer
If you remove the t-stat you won't need to run the engine to circulate the water. It will flow right past the pump.
I can't back this up with data or anecdotes but I personally wouldn't run an engine while pumping cold water into it from the tap.
When I did the big flush that you are doing I did the old trick of replacing the knock sensors with pipe fittings with barbs connected to vinyl hose connected to the garden hose and disco'd the lower radiator hose and let it run until clear.
I know I will take crap for this admission but when I got the 94 back in 96 it had brown coolant that looked like someone put orange stuff in. So I did the flush probably overboard and even ran the engine up to temp with a cup of Cascade and pure water in the system before I rinsed and filled up with the premix that works with either green or orange. I've used that premix since and never had such a mess come out as that first time. I have wondered if some of that brown stuff was the factory fill of barsleak that GM put in.
I can't back this up with data or anecdotes but I personally wouldn't run an engine while pumping cold water into it from the tap.
When I did the big flush that you are doing I did the old trick of replacing the knock sensors with pipe fittings with barbs connected to vinyl hose connected to the garden hose and disco'd the lower radiator hose and let it run until clear.
I know I will take crap for this admission but when I got the 94 back in 96 it had brown coolant that looked like someone put orange stuff in. So I did the flush probably overboard and even ran the engine up to temp with a cup of Cascade and pure water in the system before I rinsed and filled up with the premix that works with either green or orange. I've used that premix since and never had such a mess come out as that first time. I have wondered if some of that brown stuff was the factory fill of barsleak that GM put in.
06-28-2010, 12:14 PM
#13
Le Mans Master
Please only use Deionized water from the Grocery store when filling your system.....do not use tap water
http://www.corvette-guru.com/modules...d=8924&forum=1
And the water bubbling into the expansion tank.....that water may be over boiling.....but under pressure in your pressurized cooling system....it doesn't boil....but as it reaches normal atmosphere in the overflow tank...it boils for just a second until it cools down.
http://www.corvette-guru.com/modules...d=8924&forum=1
And the water bubbling into the expansion tank.....that water may be over boiling.....but under pressure in your pressurized cooling system....it doesn't boil....but as it reaches normal atmosphere in the overflow tank...it boils for just a second until it cools down.
Last edited by jhammons01; 06-28-2010 at 12:32 PM.
06-28-2010, 12:58 PM
#14
Le Mans Master
Please only use Deionized water from the Grocery store when filling your system.....do not use tap water
http://www.corvette-guru.com/modules...d=8924&forum=1
http://www.corvette-guru.com/modules...d=8924&forum=1
GM's 2010 Camaro Owners manual now says "drinkable" water is what to use. Apparently there's no longer a need to be concerned about "tap" water mineral content. I wonder if there ever really was.
Jake
06-28-2010, 01:04 PM
#15
Sorry no. I used to tag along with a B-body club once in a while and the setup was part of the club's loaner tools. But if you were to take a KS to ACE or HD I'm sure you could match it up.
06-28-2010, 02:00 PM
#16
Le Mans Master
Ask yourself why you can break open "old" systems and some are clean and green and others (similar age/mileage) are ruddy brown clay colored......
Why is that? ( I know the answer...I'm just leading the horse to the water)
06-28-2010, 02:06 PM
#17
Advanced
Thread Starter
After spending two years studying antifreeze and coolant systems for the purpose of developing a recycling (reverse osmosis) service for the auto industry....I found out more about cooling systems and Antifreeze than a person could ever anticipate. We did have a process for returning Ethylene and Propylene Glycol to a pristine state. After we were done filtering, the old reclaimed coolant was Clear as water. We had to add green die to re-color the fluid or else no one would believe we had coolant.
Ask yourself why you can break open "old" systems and some are clean and green and others (similar age/mileage) are ruddy brown clay colored......
Why is that? ( I know the answer...I'm just leading the horse to the water)
Ask yourself why you can break open "old" systems and some are clean and green and others (similar age/mileage) are ruddy brown clay colored......
Why is that? ( I know the answer...I'm just leading the horse to the water)
06-28-2010, 02:17 PM
#18
I'm not a "Chem-E" but I have some ideas that I would like you to shine your light on if you don't mind.
I think air in the system is bad both for cooling and for the durability of the coolant.
I think that while all tap water is by definition, potable, all tap water is not created equal.
I think that with the old non-pressurized systems that were vented to the atmosphere that things like fluoride and chlorine would evaporate out of the system in short order.
(I don't have a dog in this fight since I use the premix (I guess that puts me on the distilled side) and yeah I know it costs more than mixing my own but pay for the convenience.)
I think air in the system is bad both for cooling and for the durability of the coolant.
I think that while all tap water is by definition, potable, all tap water is not created equal.
I think that with the old non-pressurized systems that were vented to the atmosphere that things like fluoride and chlorine would evaporate out of the system in short order.
(I don't have a dog in this fight since I use the premix (I guess that puts me on the distilled side) and yeah I know it costs more than mixing my own but pay for the convenience.)
Last edited by 94z07fx3; 06-28-2010 at 02:20 PM.
06-28-2010, 03:46 PM
#19
Le Mans Master
^^First, the premix does put you in the distilled camp.
The reason some are clean and others or pure rot is due to Electrolysis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis
You put contaminated water into your system and then add DC Voltage (remember, our whole electrical system travels through the block and frame) and you start dissolving metals.
What you see floating around in that brown crap is rust....first the metal is released from the walls of the coolant chambers then the chlorine in your tap water rust it.....
This explains why a car that seems to have tons of miles on it....and neglected......seems to have such a clean radiator......it was never touched and it left the factory with Deionized water.....the system never corroded anything.
Conversely you get a guy that thinks they are doing a good job and flushing their system and being responsible......fills that thing with water loaded with Iron, minerals. salts, Chlorine.......
That guy would have done his motor a favor by neglecting to touch it......
The reason some are clean and others or pure rot is due to Electrolysis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis
You put contaminated water into your system and then add DC Voltage (remember, our whole electrical system travels through the block and frame) and you start dissolving metals.
What you see floating around in that brown crap is rust....first the metal is released from the walls of the coolant chambers then the chlorine in your tap water rust it.....
This explains why a car that seems to have tons of miles on it....and neglected......seems to have such a clean radiator......it was never touched and it left the factory with Deionized water.....the system never corroded anything.
Conversely you get a guy that thinks they are doing a good job and flushing their system and being responsible......fills that thing with water loaded with Iron, minerals. salts, Chlorine.......
That guy would have done his motor a favor by neglecting to touch it......
06-28-2010, 03:59 PM
#20
Thanks for the information, J.
I confess that I don't flush the systems regularly. I just drain and blow out the systems with the shop vac on blow. If I saw anything that came out that didn't look normal then I would consider another flush. Now, and hopefully from now on, all I get out is coolant that looks good enough to leave in. But if I did need a flush I would more than likely just use the garden hose, not for the fill mind you. I am sure that you know more than I do on the subject. Again, thanks.
I confess that I don't flush the systems regularly. I just drain and blow out the systems with the shop vac on blow. If I saw anything that came out that didn't look normal then I would consider another flush. Now, and hopefully from now on, all I get out is coolant that looks good enough to leave in. But if I did need a flush I would more than likely just use the garden hose, not for the fill mind you. I am sure that you know more than I do on the subject. Again, thanks.
