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So in the conversation of swapping out one engine or transmission for another the question of weight often comes up. Over on LS1Tech.com I was caught in a debate over why I would want to swap in a 4L80e into my C4. The argument was "It's so heavy it's not worth it". Well a few years ago I started a side business parting out cars. I sell a lot of Chevy LS parts. Recently I started selling complete pull out engines and transmissions. So that required me to purchase a hoist scale. Well my boredom led me to wonder what stuff weighs. So here you go. This post is just a data point in history.
First a LQ4 6.0L LS with the oil drained and no accessories.
Next up a 2wd 4L60e from a 2002 Camaro. No converter and the oil has been drained.
Then we have a 4L80e pulled from a 2wd 1 ton van. Also no converter and drained of fluid.
Everything was lifted just high enough to be off the ground. Two things about this that blew my mind. I thought an iron block 6.0L would be way heavier. This means that an iron LS motor is over 100 pounds lighter than a small block chevy. Also a 4L80e is only 50 pounds more than a 4L60e. I feel much better about my decision to swap a 4L80e in my car now. I kind of see 50 pounds in the middle of the car as negligible for the improvement in strength and the better gear ratio.
I wish I had a 700r4 to throw on there. It would be interesting to see how it compared. This winter when I pull my LS6 out I'll see what it weighs. I wonder how much more the iron 6.0L that's replacing it weighs? I'm guessing around 100 pounds.
From the research I did a few years back... There really is no weight savings with a fully dressed LS iron block. With all accessories and fluids an iron headed sbc and an aluminum headed iron block LS both weigh right in at the 560-580lb range. An aluminum headed sbc is in the 520-540lb range. Now go with aluminum block LS and you can get to 460-480lbs fully dressed.
I found that for my LT1 -> LS2 Stroker swap, I removed 124 lbs from the front of the car. There are a lot of small details that can matter, that make each setup different. Don't discount changes from manifolds + cats to headers, for example. Torque converters make a difference, especially on a 4L80e, you can shave around 20 lbs with a smaller converter. (My Yank SS3600 is 11 lbs lighter than my LT1 converter for my 4L60e)
My notes show that a gen 2 LT1 with all accessories + oil + engine mounts, but no exhaust = 479 lbs
LS2 (with FAST 102 manifold, 4" Callies crank, forged rods/pistons) with accessories + oil + engine mounts, but no exhaust = 392 lbs
I also lost weight with the ECU and wiring, eliminated air pump, cruise vacuum, ASR, and a few other un-needed bits in the engine compartment.
Overall, my 92 is around 180 lbs lighter than stock, and a few areas (exhaust and tires/wheels) moved some weight rearward as well.
From the research I did a few years back... There really is no weight savings with a fully dressed LS iron block. With all accessories and fluids an iron headed sbc and an aluminum headed iron block LS both weigh right in at the 560-580lb range. An aluminum headed sbc is in the 520-540lb range. Now go with aluminum block LS and you can get to 460-480lbs fully dressed.
I agree that a SBC with alum heads will weigh about the same as a iron block LS with alum heads.
Attached is a picture of my 436 CID SBC with no accessories and no exhaust around 420 LBS.
I should have compared that to my 427 LS7, I will weigh both this weekend just for fun.
Also a 4L80e is only 50 pounds more than a 4L60e. I feel much better about my decision to swap a 4L80e in my car now. I kind of see 50 pounds in the middle of the car as negligible for the improvement in strength and the better gear ratio.
The 700r/4L60 is a 3.0x first gear ratio where the 4L80 is a 2.5x. So if you swap a 4L80 into a car that had a 700r or 4L60 with 3.07 rear end gears it would be like having a 2.59 starting gear in your rear. If you have a 2.59 rear end and swap in a 4L80 its like having a 2.00 gears in your rear end for 1st. That 4L80 swap is only good if you want to put 4.11 gears and drag/road race with closer gear ratios. Plus the 4L80 is a .75 4th gear where the 4L60 is a .68. Better RPMs on the freeway too. I have a 01 Sub with the 8.1l and the 4L80 with 3.73 gears. My daughter has a 01 Tahoe with the 5.3L 3.42 gears and the 4L60. The tahoe pulls harder in 1st than my sub. I hate the way the 4L80 pulls in first. Once it gets up to speed the sub pulls hard, just that first gear lacks pull with the miserably low ratio. On the top end the sub does 2200 RPMs to do 65 on the freeway. The tahoe does 1800 RPMs to do 65. So on both ends the 4L80 is disappointing to me.
The 700r/4L60 is a 3.0x first gear ratio where the 4L80 is a 2.5x. So if you swap a 4L80 into a car that had a 700r or 4L60 with 3.07 rear end gears it would be like having a 2.59 starting gear in your rear. If you have a 2.59 rear end and swap in a 4L80 its like having a 2.00 gears in your rear end for 1st. That 4L80 swap is only good if you want to put 4.11 gears and drag/road race with closer gear ratios. Plus the 4L80 is a .75 4th gear where the 4L60 is a .68. Better RPMs on the freeway too. I have a 01 Sub with the 8.1l and the 4L80 with 3.73 gears. My daughter has a 01 Tahoe with the 5.3L 3.42 gears and the 4L60. The tahoe pulls harder in 1st than my sub. I hate the way the 4L80 pulls in first. Once it gets up to speed the sub pulls hard, just that first gear lacks pull with the miserably low ratio. On the top end the sub does 2200 RPMs to do 65 on the freeway. The tahoe does 1800 RPMs to do 65. So on both ends the 4L80 is disappointing to me.
I have both as well and this is mostly true but I will say the later truck I have has a higher stall from the factory and that mostly offsets it. The 80e is a heavy duty trans designed to keep a big block, 350, or 6.0l in the power band all the time in a 3/4 ton up and is expected to handle severe duty which is the reason for the close ratios. 2000 rpm at 65 is about right for any of them. That's why it is built that way.
This is my LS6 with no manifolds and a Camaro oil pan. This is an aluminum block.
So it's 100 less than the 6.0L. But here's the funny thing. The 6.0L that I weighed had cast manifolds on it. So just for grins I set a pair of manifolds on top of the LS6 just to see. There are only 65 pounds different. So I guess if you're building a street car an aluminum block just isn't worth the extra $.
This is my LS6 with no manifolds and a Camaro oil pan. This is an aluminum block.
So it's 100 less than the 6.0L. But here's the funny thing. The 6.0L that I weighed had cast manifolds on it. So just for grins I set a pair of manifolds on top of the LS6 just to see. There are only 65 pounds different. So I guess if you're building a street car an aluminum block just isn't worth the extra $.
It also looks like you have a water pump and accessory bracket on the front of your LS6 that you didn't on the 6.0.
The weight difference between iron and aluminum block engines is almost exactly 100 lbs.
Originally Posted by topfuel67
The 700r/4L60 is a 3.0x first gear ratio where the 4L80 is a 2.5x. So if you swap a 4L80 into a car that had a 700r or 4L60 with 3.07 rear end gears it would be like having a 2.59 starting gear in your rear. If you have a 2.59 rear end and swap in a 4L80 its like having a 2.00 gears in your rear end for 1st. That 4L80 swap is only good if you want to put 4.11 gears and drag/road race with closer gear ratios. Plus the 4L80 is a .75 4th gear where the 4L60 is a .68. Better RPMs on the freeway too. I have a 01 Sub with the 8.1l and the 4L80 with 3.73 gears. My daughter has a 01 Tahoe with the 5.3L 3.42 gears and the 4L60. The tahoe pulls harder in 1st than my sub. I hate the way the 4L80 pulls in first. Once it gets up to speed the sub pulls hard, just that first gear lacks pull with the miserably low ratio. On the top end the sub does 2200 RPMs to do 65 on the freeway. The tahoe does 1800 RPMs to do 65. So on both ends the 4L80 is disappointing to me.
The 4L80e isn't usually chosen for ratios, its chosen for strength. A 4L60e is a terrible transmission for real power. Its unreliable and has many known weak points. I got 3 years out of an unknown mileage 4L80e at ~900 HP with nothing but a cheap shift kit. It was still auto, being shifted by the PCM. It only let go because of a failed lockwasher in my TCI shift cable caused enough cable slop for me to end up with a bad neutral drop situation at wide open throttle. The car went 9s at 300-350 HP less than what I had been daily driving it on the street with. If that had been a 4L60e, I would've broken more than just internal parts.
So at full dress... about 100 lbs? That is and isn't significant depending on the person I guess. Basically get whatever is cheaper for a street car though. You'll end up roughly at stock WD or better.
Originally Posted by JoeNova
It also looks like you have a water pump and accessory bracket on the front of your LS6 that you didn't on the 6.0.
The weight difference between iron and aluminum block engines is almost exactly 100 lbs.
The 4L80e isn't usually chosen for ratios, its chosen for strength. A 4L60e is a terrible transmission for real power. Its unreliable and has many known weak points. I got 3 years out of an unknown mileage 4L80e at ~900 HP with nothing but a cheap shift kit. It was still auto, being shifted by the PCM. It only let go because of a failed lockwasher in my TCI shift cable caused enough cable slop for me to end up with a bad neutral drop situation at wide open throttle. The car went 9s at 300-350 HP less than what I had been daily driving it on the street with. If that had been a 4L60e, I would've broken more than just internal parts.
As i said earlier... I don't get why people complain about the ratios. For the purpose it was built for it blows a 60e out of the water and will be around to pick up the pieces of several failed attempts at a "built" (whatever that means) 60e after. Actually the only GM trans I've killed (in stock application) was a 6l90... 6 neutrals by 55k. That impressed even myself. Worst I've had with the 80s is the stupid 1870 and I'm just too lazy to fix that the right way... with a shift kit and send it.
It also looks like you have a water pump and accessory bracket on the front of your LS6 that you didn't on the 6.0.
The weight difference between iron and aluminum block engines is almost exactly 100 lbs.
I guess you're right. I just didn't think a water pump weighed that much.
Yeah I'm at a loss as to why so many people pay to build 4l60's or worse yet 700r4's. With a stock motor the 4l60e works great. I have a 4L60e in my bone stock Silverado with a 4.8L and I love it. But for a high performance street car theirs no way. The best part is if I break my 4L80e in my Vette I'll just go pick up another one.
The last time I was at the wreaking yard I was picking up a couple more LQ4's to sell on ebay. I saw a 4L80e laying in a mud puddle. Someone pulled it out of a 2006 Express van. They just wanted the 6.0L and not the trans. So I put it on my cart and bought it. When I got home I pulled it apart and found it was perfect inside. It was a fresh rebuild and appears to be done right. This trans stock will handle more power then most built 4L60e's and I got it from a mud puddle.
I’ve got over 1000 low 10 second passes on my 4l60 with no issues. Just pulled it out for the first time for a freshen up. 1.36 60s on a 3000lb car. Full throttle converter lockup. I realize it’s not as stout as a 4l80e but for my power needs it has worked out fine.
Yeah I'm at a loss as to why so many people pay to build 4l60's or worse yet 700r4's. With a stock motor the 4l60e works great. I have a 4L60e in my bone stock Silverado with a 4.8L and I love it. But for a high performance street car theirs no way. The best part is if I break my 4L80e in my Vette I'll just go pick up another one.
The last time I was at the wreaking yard I was picking up a couple more LQ4's to sell on ebay. I saw a 4L80e laying in a mud puddle. Someone pulled it out of a 2006 Express van. They just wanted the 6.0L and not the trans. So I put it on my cart and bought it. When I got home I pulled it apart and found it was perfect inside. It was a fresh rebuild and appears to be done right. This trans stock will handle more power then most built 4L60e's and I got it from a mud puddle.
I get when there are space constraints why to go with it but that's also generally in stock or near stock applications... and usually guys going from power glides or th350s for the overdrive use in a driver. That I understand. In a really light car I can see it as well. But for the average guy, it's cheap. It fits. Why not. Wish I could slap one in the 67. Right now it has a th400 but that lack of overdrive with 3.73s makes for fun on cruises. It has no passing gear on the highway. And I'd have to adapt it to a BOP bell housing and flex plate.
11-06-2021, 04:21 PM
Weights of LS 6.0L, 4L60e, 4L80e
