mqqn

Hi 67restomod -

I ordered a new GT 'stang in 86 - the first year for FI and manual trans. Nice play car, but disappointing in several aspects.

When the Cobra re-appeared in '94, I was again tempted to crawl into a pony-car, impressed that the Blue-oval guys had FINALLY gotten around to putting decent brakes (read that read disc brakes) on thier "premium" muscle-car. I had ben driving an '87 Formula 350 - also purchased new, that had 4-wheel disc for SEVEN YEARS. (BTW - I traded the GT for an 89 Formula 350 as well - just more car IMO).

Let there be no mistake -

Mustang Cobra = PONY CAR
Corvette Z06 = WORLD CLASS PERFORMANCE VEHICLE

Lightnings are really cool - a friend of mine bought one - I loved the pig-suede seats and the blower - very cool performance vehicle indeed - one thing though, total crap in a Chicago winter (so would a 'vette be). He traded or a F250 4WD.

Zapper

I think we should all get on our knees and Thank the man upstairs for putting the horsepower and styling wars back onto the front burner between Chrysler - GM - Ford.

I say, let the games begin.

Saddle up boys, hunting season is here !! :yesnod: :yesnod: :yesnod:

MrViperGTS

Ryan,

I find it amusing that you would dismiss the Mustang by saying "it's just a Mustang", yet put the "just a Chevy" in the same category as a Ferrari!

If you beat a buy in a Porsche 911 in your Z06, and he turned his nose and said "yeah, but I am driving a Porsche and you're in a Chevy!" would you hang your head, admit he is right, and bow to the "better car", or would you laugh and think "hey, I guess if your car ain't speaking through it's performance, then you need SOMETHING to justify your purchase!". To me, that's the same attitude you've got towards the 'stang.

I give MAJOR props to Ford for making this car. If someone buys one, cranks up the boost, and spanks me on the track (which is possible), I'll give them all the credit in the world. If the Mustang was able to beat my car in STOCK form, I'll be amazed and have a whole new perspective on the car. But one thing I won't ever say is "yeah but it's just a Mustang"

67restomod

I don't understand how you all can say the Z06 will completely beat the mustang on a road course when the mustang isn't even out yet. Have you even driven one of the new mustangs on a road course to be able to say what the differences are? Based on the Z06's reputation, I would expect it to win, but to just flat out say it as if it were a fact, I think is a little premature.

Brutus0725

:U Mustangs

SharkbyteLT4

With all the issues that had with the new motor in 99', not counting the IRS problems they were having..The damn thing probably will fall apart the first week out..IF they were having problems getting everything to work right on a 320hp car, I hate to see what will happen on a 390hp version.. :smash:

WA 2 FST

Ford will never live down the "egg on their face" issue with the '99 Cobra powerplants. It indeed was a sad day(s) for Ford. This "problem" has been solved for 2 years now.

But to say the thing is "going to fall apart" is silly. I drove a '96 Cobra for 4 years. It ran low-12s with a few mods. Zero problems. It was equipped with '96 Corvette GS brakes from the factory, so it was a competent car in this area too. ETC, ETC. The fact is that as far as being "put together" well...IMHO (and it is _just_ that...my opinion), it far surpasses the late F-bodies. You mention the problems with the IRS. What do you think of GM's 10-bolt crap rear-end in the F-body? I'm comparing pony car to pony car here...the way it should be.

If you want to compare "quality" of a car...then I would rate the Vette higher than a new Mustang, but I would put the Mustang a head above the defunct F-bodies. Pure power...sure the LS1 has been king over the 'Stang since it came out ('97). But overall build quality...sorry, the Mustang has been a better car for a long time, IMHO (and I'm not brand loyal or I wouldn't have a Vette).

restomod67, I would be in agreement that the Cobra will get toasted by a Z06 on the road course. Weight to power/braking ability ratio puts the Z06 way, way ahead. The Vette's front SLA suspension is far superior to the Cobra's. The Cobra _finally_ gets some decent sized tires (275/40-17), but probably not enough tire to keep all that weight in check as you throw it through the corners.

I think its a neat car (great car for the price), but I do not think for one minute it will hang with a stock '01+ Z06.

That being said...it's not going to "fall apart". :rolleyes:

BAD 97 WS-6

I wouldn't sweat it. Even with that HP, they won't be able to run 115 mph traps like the Z06.

RWhite

Wes, are you going to Ennis tomorrow?

I bet the crowds will be large, so my son and I are going early to get some runs in before the track gets crummy. I will be taking the new bone stock 'Vette to the ¼ mile for the first time since getting it in early January. Have gone to the Royce City track twice, but 1/8 mile tracks just don't seem as exciting as the ¼ mile track.

I agree with all the others. I bought my 'Vette for one reason only, it is a 'Vette. The Cobra is a Mustang. I have had 4 Mustang's and they are nice, etc. but the 'Vette is definitely in a league by itself. I am sure the new Cobra will be exciting, but would sure like Ford to bring out an "all motor" Cobra. This new one will have the advantage of all the free R&D that Mustang'ers have provided Ford for the past 4-5 years (adding blowers, gears, T-56, etc.). Ford just had to read all the forums and take a pick of what everyone wants and uses.

JBS99HT

You can't make Sh&t shine. Enough said, even if its faster than the Z, its still is a soap box on wheels. :U :U :U :D :D

Ryan Bell

Since when did I say that? OH WAIT, you're IMPLYING that I said that. Ok. NOW it makes since. :rolleyes:

Let's put it like this. The Ferrari and Corvette, while not in the same class really (on a specific level), *are* still both in the "world class sports car" class (which is basically excludes pony cars for all practical purposes); and although that's not really a "class" in and of itself, they're both a part of a group of cars that compete on a world class level. It's like referring to 1/4 mile cars that run 12's or better (which might be a personal standard of yours). In that case, a Corvette Z06 and McLaren F1 might be grouped together, although one's quite faster than another. They're still in a group of what one might consider "fast, stock cars". It's the same thing with the Vette and F355 by my standards. Both are world class sports cars on most anyone's list, including mine. The Mustang is not. I thought that was kind of obvious, but oh well. A Mustang is not a world class sports car. A Vette is indeed a world class sports car. People draw the line at different places I guess. Whatever.

No, because first of all, if he actaully said that (which I would NEVER actually do....there's some thoughts you just keep to yourself), I'd think he was an aashole. Secondly, would I hang my head and admit he was right? If he was driving a 911 Turbo.......I wouldn't hang my head, but YES, in a sense, I would know he had a point. Why? Because straight line performance is not the measuring stick of how good a car is. Is my theoretical Z06 an awesome car? HELL YEAH it is. I'd love to actually own one of those now. BUT, I'm sorry, let's be realistic....it's not a 911 Turbo. Again, it's the overall driving experience (the WAY it handles turns, feels, the level of feedback it provides the driver, etc, etc, etc)......not just "my car hauls butt, and yours doesn't". I wouldn't be hanging my head at all, because I'd be driving a badaas ride, but even though the guy was a total aashole, I'd still know deep down he had a point to some degree (pending he actually knew something about the car.....if he didn't know jack about what he was driving, I wouldn't give it a second thought). That's how I would feel. But again, I'm not telling everyone how to view a Mustang........I'm telling you how I view the new Mustang (pending they even build it).

Yeah, me too........AFTER the F-body is gone. :rolleyes:

Sure....me too. That's one facet of many that it's slightly better in. So be it. That's respectable. But that doesn't necessarily change my view of the car. I don't "look down" on it per se, but that still doesn't mean it has to excite me the same way a Vette does. Until it can give me the caliber of driving experience as a Vette, it's still going to be on a different level to me. I apologize if this offends anyone. :rolleyes:

I will. It's only proved it self in a straight line. That's not enough to raise the bar to the Vette level.
:smash:



[Modified by Ryan Bell, 12:23 PM 2/1/2002]

FINN II

I wouldn't sweat it. That fat pig of a car won't run faster than a 13.00. Think about it, the Cobra-R has 5 less hp and weighs less than the new cobra and that POS only went a best of 13.00. It might be able click off some low 13's but that's about it. Any 03 Cobra owner might want to check the NOS option box at the dealer because that's the only chance they'll have!

Ryan Bell

Pretty much. :D :lol:

bwhitmore

Is this like the Cobra of 2000???? You know, the one that Ford claimed made 320hp, the same one that got recalled after all the owners found those numbers to be bogus, the same one that wasn't even released in 2001 because of all the problems Ford had as a result of the recalls, the same one that got re-released in 2002 and still couldn't hang with the SS Camaro or the WS6 in any test, on any course, by any crew????

Need I remind you Ford already tried to compete with Z06, it was called the Mustang Cobra R. Of course, it wasn't much for competiton with a heavily inflated price tag and heavily deflated performance numbers.

Listen, I don't normally go off flaming people but when you say stuff like, "Have you even driven one of the new mustangs on a road course...?" I can tell you that your in for a big disappointment. I don't mind asking if YOU've ever driven a Z06. If you have, then like the rest of us, you begin wonder why anybody in their right mind even owns a Mustang, much less pays money to own one. Time and time again, I see Mustangs at road courses, at drag strips, and at AutoX events, every time I see one perform I hang my head. It is truely pitiful. I will admit Ford had a go at GM with the Fox Body, whatever remains of those days are nothing more than history....:nonod:


[Modified by bwhitmore, 2:21 PM 2/1/2002]

mlambert890

Personally, I dont feel comfortable jumping on the "its just a Mustang" bandwagon, for one simple reason. That type of thinking is exactly what I find myself endlessly defending the Vette against. To the world at large, the Corvette is generally in the same sentence as the FBody and the Mustang because it is domestic and mass-market.

What's worse is that this is the argument that the Porsche enthusiasts *always* resort to when confronted with the likes of the NSX, the Supra or the RX-7. Luckily, however, Porsche always ups the ante and makes sure there is a 911 that is a major butt-whooper.

*IF* (and this is a big I F ) Ford really does transform the Mustang into a true Z06 killer for less money (that would mean handling and acceleration parity, imho), then I would say that Chevy has some work to do. I won't say "it's just a Mustang" b/c that would be a bad mistake.

67restomod

Wow, its amazing how "conclusive" your statements are without any facts to back them up. Corvettes are "world class" and the new "mustangs" are not, simply because, well, that's the way it is. Wake up, the rest of the world hardly considers the corvette a world class car.

Personally, I disagree, I know the vette is just as good if not better than European cars. The rest of the world looks down on vettes because of the same snobish reason you don't consider the Cobra or Cobra R a world class car, "just because"!! As a lawyer, I just laugh. Give me facts, "just the facts Ma'am." Because with the facts, its hard to argue that both cars are not in the same league. The bottom line is that the Cobra has not even been tested yet by anyone, much less you, and you are already saying that it does not compare to the corvette! How could you possibly know? Except for the snob appeal, it could very well be a much better vehicle, but you would never know, because you automatically discount it because it is not a corvette.
Just like the Viper, Porche and Ferrari owners do with the vettes, you discount the mustang with no factual basis, yet you still scream for respect for the corvette. My point is, give it a chance, see what it does compared to the vette, and let the best car win on the tract or street, not in some "pre-consceived mindset."

bwhitmore

Yeah right, I would eat my own s*%! if that happened. (which is to say...trust me, I am not eating my own s*%! anytime soon, and the Mustang will never be a competetor to the Z06)

I think we should re-name this post to:
"Looks like the 2003 Cobra could challenge the 2002 F-bodies"
then we might have an argument....

Ryan Bell

Actually, much of it DOES consider it a world class car. But oookkkk.......I'll "wake up" or whatever. :rolleyes:

There is no "just because". Mustangs don't handle well comparatively. That's pretty damn factual. Take one around a track (yes, I've actually done that), and you'll see. The new Cobra should handle reasonably well, but I doubt it'll be in the same class as a Vette. And also, the difference in the overall driving experience is enough to be the ONLY reason for my statements, and substatiate it beyond a reasonable doubt. And also, if you do in fact look at the numbers, there's a big damn difference as it stands now. We'll have to wait and see how those change with the '03 Cobra, but my guess is that acceleration will improve, and that's about it.

You can't put the driving experience into "numbers" to show someone. I mean, yeah it has to meet some sort of minimum criteria to be a true sports car, but when you're comparing cars like a Viper and a 911 Turbo for instance, you can't just rely on "the facts" (i.e. the numbers). There are LOTS of intangibles. Most people can figure this out with a simple test drive.

I don't. I never said I did. I just said that based on the facts we have now, and the car that's available now (which handling-wise, should be close). Nothing wrong with speculation (especially if there's something reasonably close in the market now.....after all, it is basically the same car with a different engine and gear box....different? sure in some ways, but it's still the same basic car with different power).

Yeah, I'm dumb. I'd never own anything less than a Vette. :rolleyes:
(check sig. I own a Lightning. Heaven forbid, right?)

That doesn't mean it won't be good car FOR THAT MARKET. I'm just saying it's not on par with the Vette yet IN MY EYES. Is there something wrong with me having that opinion? Evidently so.....:rolleyes:

The Corvette doesn't need to earn it's respect. It's already done so. I don't have to scream for anything. The only people that need proof that the Vette deserves to be where it is are the people that don't know enough about it. Period.

Ok, that sounds good. I must have been wrong for having an opinion. I apologize for stating what I thought about the car. I forgot that there's only one way to think about all of this. Your way. The right way. :rolleyes:

You know what's really funny? You say getting beat in a Vette by a Cobra that's 15k-$20k less is embarrassing, then I disagree, and get hell over it. Screw that. There's more than one way to think about the Cobra, believe it or not. And EVERY BIT of what I say is substantiated. Unfortunately, I don't have ten hours to post all of that, but I've driven a LOT of Mustangs, including Cobras with IRS. There's a LOT to be said about the Vette in comparison.....trust me.

It's a Mustang. It's not a Vette. I don't view them in a same light, and if you re-read the thread, hardly ANYONE else does either. If you have a problem with that, then sorry, but that's how most of the world thinks. WAY more even on this thread agree with me on this viewpoint. Re-read if you like. If anything, you're trying to rally respect for the new Cobra, not vice versa.

Here's one last :rolleyes: for this topic. Geez. I have better things to do than get slammed for my opinion. Have fun telling people how to think.



[Modified by Ryan Bell, 4:27 PM 2/1/2002]

bwhitmore

Check it out, I am making an offer to eat my own s&*t here. Seriously, I can make easier money betting on this than I can on the weather (and its cloudy outside). There is no way the Mustang will ever be a competitor to the Z06. Or even the Corvette. Your right, I'm not basing this on a test drive of the new Mustang Cobra, I am basing this upon the proven track record of Mustangs up until this point, for which I can show you to a list of facts that don't stand up, a list far longer than you can comprehend. If your a lawyer you should be the first to admit that someone or something's history is very much relevant in a court of law. I would be damned if you would represent a known wife-beater in a case of domestic dispute. Respectively, you are having an awefully tough time representing a poor performing vehicle, in a case of performance cars. One more thing, I suppose you think O.J Simpson is innocent. I don't have to be there the night he murdered his wife to know he isn't....


[Modified by bwhitmore, 4:34 PM 2/1/2002]

Ryan Bell

:yesnod: :yesnod: :yesnod: :yesnod:

Kinda funny how almost EVERYONE AUTOMATICALLY knows this isn't it?

Hmm...let's see....who doesn't? :lol:

And yes, after driving a few of them, I would concur with bwhitmore: "why would anyone in their right mind buy a mustang after driving one?". The performance simply isn't there. Adding a blower doesn't change most of intrinsic characteristics of the car in the handling dept. At 3500lbs or so, good luck keeping up with a Z06 on ANY sort of track.

The Mustang never was, AND NEVER WILL BE a serious competitor for the Vette. I guess the facts are hard to swallow sometimes. You can twist all you want, and even suggest time and time again that they are in the same league, but on the whole, most enthusiasts (note that I said MOST, meaning the vast majority, not "all") won't ever view the Cobra in the same light. The little reason behind all of this is a thing called "performance" (which is more than straight line mind you). Those performance numbers should be factual enough for anyone. That's just the way it is. Sorry. :cry :yesnod: :D



[Modified by Ryan Bell, 4:47 PM 2/1/2002]