MrViperGTS

EuG,

MT said thats what they FIGURE it will run - let's not dismiss the car until some of them are seen on the streets.

Second, for every C5 I see running 110mph traps (almost none), there are 20 that are closer to 105. It would be very optimistic to say "C5's run 110" - just like saying "Vipers run 121!" :)

Just my NSHO of course...

Pio

MrViperGTS- Although I agree with 99% of your posts, I've seen a bunch of stock C5's running at or about 110 in Carlsbad Raceway in California. The f-bodies are also running close to 110, some with just intake mods. And, these engines don't need a supercharger to do it.

Some will say, "yeah, but its a 4.6 vs a 5.7" to that I say- 4 overhead valves vs. 2! My 4.9 liter, 4,000 lb 4-door runs 108+ :crazy: in the 1/4, so 4 valves/cylinder works.

I'm glad Ford is putting together such an attractive package, but I've seen a bunch of blown, 3.73 geared Cobras running hi 12's , barely over 110.

The horsepower race has been on since the mid 80's, now it just got a bit more interesting
:yesnod:


[Modified by Pio, 9:25 PM 2/3/2002]

TurboTnZ06

105 mph? I think I've stumbled into the C4 section,.. wait no, this is the Z06 forum:confused: I haven't run 110mph in the 1/4 in my Z06, it's more like 115mph... :cheers:

EuG

MrViperGTS,
They quoted 390bhp and 3510lb curb weight, so their 110MPH estimate sounds about right to me (give or take a MPH). I’m not dismissing it, but I just don’t see how it can compete with Z06 (~115-116MPH trap) in the straight line :nono:

LOL agreed there, 100% :yesnod: Of course the reason is some people just can’t drive :nonod:
I think it’s fair to say that in hands of a good driver in good weather a stock LS1 C5 would run ~110MPH, ’01 Z06 would run ~114MPH, ’02 Z06 – 115-116MPH, Viper ~118-119MPH.

VetteBoy1979

Wow,
What a thread. First of all, I have to heartily agree with Ryan on all his points. If we all read MT, C&D, and other magazines, I think that most of us believe, within reason, many things that are written in the articles. This being said, whenever they do "Worlds Best Sports Car" type articles, has anyone ever seen a Mustang in those? The fact remains that the Corvette is seen as a "world class sports car". How do I know? Why does Chevy spend so much money on export features to ship them all over the world? Im not saying you cant get a Mustang or Camaro anywhere in the world, but people arent running on water to spend that much money on a car such as those. That being said, I am in no way disrespecting either of those cars.
Pony cars are in a class of their own. Raw power, decent build quality, and a f*ck off attitude are what they portray. Is it possible for Mustangs and Camaros to beat Vettes? Sure! My C3 is slow as heck and I dont deny that. Yes, Mustangs can beat C5's. Stock, no way.
On the topic of the Cobra R...was this built to go fast, YES! Was it built to compete with a Vette...if Ford thought so, they were sadly mistaken. The whole point of the Cobra Rs has been as a track car. Racing seats, no a/c, radio, back seat,its not a street car like a Vette. So it cannot be competitive with a Vette. Plus, it was that stripped down, lighter, lots of power, and still SLOW! Oh, lets add 45 hp or so, PLUS, iron block, and lthr, radio, a/c, back seat, stuff a street Mustang will have, and its not going to come close to Vette numbers. Low 13's, of course, maybe 12.99.
Also, lets look at Cobra pricing again shall we? Cobra's, MSRP Im talking about are around $28-31, just like a loaded SS. So, adding $10-$15 to the price will put it around $38-46? So where is the $15k you save by buying a Cobra?
:confused: :rolleyes:

Anyway, to put this thread to rest. The Mustang is not in the same class as a Vette, but can be as fast or faster when modified; however, a stock one will not be able to compete. Mustangs wont sell for that much money, their build quality is worse than a SS let alone a C5. Ford has never built a car comparable to the Vette. If they do, they better make it something NOT based on a Mustang platform, cause it just aint the same. :smash:
If they do though, hats off for a job well done. :rolleyes:

97GTS

I haven't read the entire thread yet (too long) but a coupe things strike me as amusing. First I don't think the new Mustang is any threat to the Z06 in straight line or on a road course, it's wishful thinking if you believe it will. However it will challenge the regular C5 in straight line performance and it may be close on a road course. Whether you like it or not the new Cobra is a contender with the standard Vette :yesnod: Isn't it funny how the Vette guys will say the Z06 is in the same league as a Porsche TT or Viper but when a lowly old Mustang is compared to the mighty Corvette "oh it's still just a mustang" :confused: they are all just cars! Just because it's a Vette don't mean it's blessed by God to have supernatural powers (we all know the Viper is God's true chosen car :D), its just iron, pistons, parts etc. same as a Mustang. So what makes the Vette so "special"? oh yea that's right, it's the "heritage" :rolleyes: To compare a Vette to a F355 is like comparing a Kia to a Vette , they are not even in the same league, everyone knows it, don't matter what the Magazines feed you. Please pull your head out of the ground and look around :eek: within one year Ford will have the supercharged Cobra and Dodge will have a Viper powered 500HP truck, both of which will be neck and neck with the Vette (straight line anyway). It's time for GM to step up to the plate (C6 anyone?) and jump into this new muscle car era. Mark my words -> over the next 5 years the greatest vehicles in history will be built, it's something you will be telling your grandchildren about 50 years from now :cool:


[Modified by 97GTS, 1:23 AM 2/4/2002]

VetteBoy1979

I am assuming you are referring to Ryans mention of the F355.

[/QUOTE] They're still in a group of what one might consider "fast, stock cars". It's the same thing with the Vette and F355 by my standards. Both are world class sports cars on most anyone's list. [/QUOTE]

Why dont you pull your head out of YOUR "ground" and realize that its all a numbers game to a certain degree. However, looking at a car as a WHOLE, the fact remains that american cars and Italian supercars are not in the same class. I agree with you there. Duh...but can they run as fast? Sure, some of them, some even faster! In determining what makes a "world class car" there are MANY factors. Maybe we should start a new post on this so we can stop hurting the Mustang guys feelings :lol: jk jk jk

Ryan Bell

Exactly. I agree wholeheartedly (esp. with that last statement :lol: )Who in the hell said a F355 and a Vette were "on the same level"? I DID NOT, so I don't know what they're referring to. I said they're both world class sports cars....that's it. Not that their "competitors" or ANYTHING of that nature. This thread isn't about what's a world class sports car anyway.

You know what's just funny to me? This whole point that people are driving home (including me) that the Mustang isn't in the same league as a Vette is just SO elementary. How in the WORLD can you argue against that? It's not even debatable. Look at any test done WORLDWIDE where they assemble a large group of sports cars, and the Vette is almost always included, along with Viper, 911 or 911 Turbo, 360 Modena (or F355 if you go back a few years), Supra Turbo (again, if you go back a few years), and cars of this caliber. Do they EVER bring a Mustang? No. And for good reason. Look at the company it's with. Regardless of that, look at anything.....performance, design quality, build quality, handling, ANYTHING....you name it, the Mustang's pretty much lacking in it in comparison. Even if it's better in one thing (such as sheer acceleration), WHO CARES? Look at the whole car's performance. Why is this hard to understand? It's definitively NOT in the same league. AGAIN, let me state: look at numbers from the Mustang all the way back to it's inception and compare those with a Vette (although they were never really meant to compete in the first place....that's Camaro's job). The Vette cleans house. "Wait, but in 19xx, the Mustang outperformed......" blah blah blah. Leave the exceptions alone. On the whole, the Vette cleans house....by a long shot. You REALLY think this is going to change? Hardly. Mark it down. It WILL NOT happen. And it WILL NOT even COME CLOSE to touching the Z06. That's just something that'll be fact. "Well, we don't know that yet.....we'll just have to see".....do you really have to see it first? Hardly. How could you NOT see that, based on what's going into the car? It weighs more (~3500 lbs unladen) produces less power, has a heavy iron block in the front of it....you get the idea. It's just not going to measure up to the Z06. I think it'll have a hard enough time with the coupe (how could it NOT?). The numbers (weight, power production, and overall balance) just won't allow it to touch the Z06. It not a "we'll have to wait and see" issue. If they build it like they say they are, then count on it being no threat to the Z06.



[Modified by Ryan Bell, 10:56 AM 2/4/2002]

MrViperGTS

EuG,

I agree 100% - and I agree the new 'stang will be Z06 fodder - just waiting to see how it stacks up to stock C5's.

Ryan,

I don't think the '70's Vettes were very reknowned for their performance either. Maybe Ford is graduating to a REAL car in the new Cobra? They are claiming the suspension is vastly improved over previous models - so maybe this car WILL handle?

Up until the C5 (and especially the Z06), the Corvette was not a world class sports car - certainly not in the game with the 355's, etc. So no Corvette could be a world class car based on the previous versions? BS! This new Mustang will stand on it's own. And if it performs well, don't dismiss it by saying that it's still "just a Mustang" and therefore not worthy of consideration. That would be *amazingly* hypocritical, since Ford MIGHT just try to do what GM did with the C5 - allow the car to grow up and hold it's own against some serious competitors.

bparker

Thanks for the post, but all i have to say is -

BRING IT ON BABY! :yesnod:

See ya @ the track! & Run whattcha brung! If you cant drive it, it doesnt matter what HP you have - and for those whom can drive; well you had better watch out for the granny looking car with .500 reaction times spraying NOS all over the track on a big block... hehe :D

:cheers:


[Modified by bparker, 11:40 PM 2/14/2002]

1fastdog

We'll see what the Mustang Cobra has to offer once it is out in the streets. Why Ford waited so long to carry the Lightning concept over to the Mustang is beyond me.

From the initial reports the Pony folks will get a car that runs without spending a fair deal of mod money.

It's amazing what perceptions there are out there. The racing most people can relate to is drag racing, and that's understandable as not many motorsports are able to be done without bending the car or armco. You can go drag racing and not be good at it and still survive and the car will too... not much chance of that with roadracing.

With the weight bias it appears the Mustang will have, it will take some real engineering to get it around a racecourse or AutoX with a C5. AutoX is fairly well dominated by Z06's, as far a stock V8 classed vehicles go. I don't think the new Cobra will change that. That much weight and where it is lends itselt to understeer and provides braking and brake bias issues too... none of this make much difference to stoplight or straightline racers.

Most unibody designs have body flex issues and my knowledge of the Mustang is that is it has more body twist than the Camaro, which isn't a stiff car itself.

These kinds of things make the dynamics of getting great handling a problem... the chassis compliance can be compensated for but the car will be less predictable when the surface is not smooth. Full framed designs are the better way to go for handling dynamics. I don't think it's a major leap to have a fair assumption the Cobra has nothing for a C5 with Z51, even far less for a Z06 on a roadcourse or AutoX.

Weight is an issue in any acceleration games. The Cobra may be underrated @390HP. It will need to be 40HP underated to sweat a Z06 in the 1/4 mile. The laws of physics don't change because we'd like them to.

Though I'm happy for the Ford fans, I have little interest in the Cobra from a personal ownership standpoint because the basic structure of the car isn't a good place to start if I hoped to get what I expect from a sports car.

Weight as well and it's placement are issues when you want to change direction or slow it's velocity quickly. If Ford gets relatively neutral handling out of this thing I'll be surprised...to do so will make it a bear to launch in a drag racing setting as the front bar will be monsterous and the rear camber will be hop happy. If this Cobra ends up being a one trick pony, I won't be surprised. For the audience it will appeal to it won't matter much either.

There may be the rub here and what may prove to be true. The early articles have stated MPH in the quarter and not et. Could be an indicator of a good HP car that won't 60 foot. If the et was mid 12's I'd think Ford would bring that up, don't you? We all know MPH is how fast, but not how quick.

I had to chuckle when someone in this thread said something to the effect that a couple of tenths wasn't a big deal...well it's a long way at the big end of a dragstrip and 2 seconds is a lifetime on a roadcourse...




[Modified by 1fastdog, 3:11 AM 2/15/2002]

The DBK

MrViperGTS,
I agree with everything you've said here. :yesnod:

Bottom line for me is that if you've got to get all frenzied trying to defend the Vette from the Cobra before it's even out, Ford has done one hell of a job. They've already won a war of words just getting the Cobra mentioned up in the next level rather than being compared to the f-bods, which is the whole point in the first place. Ford has begun with this Cobra slowly distancing the SVT car from the regular Stang. Eventually when the 04 platform switch occurs they're supposed to have totally different motors and it's gonna be aimed right around the base Vette, as an ALTERNATIVE, if not even a direct competitor. For one I think it's great that the car is moving up in the world, because those who haven't drove an SVT Cobra and lump it with the regular GT aren't doing the car justice. I'd much rather have a Cobra than an SS if I was looking for a more well balanced vehicle. People are acting like the Cobra is slow, but the 02 Cobra's were doing 0-60 in around 5 flat and the 1/4 in the low 13s already. Add 70 hp and you have a car that is no joke. I know I know, that's horrible for a car that costs 30k :rolleyes:

Also, if we're basing the future of cars based on their history, there is no way I'd be in a Vette. I'm young so I missed all the great years in the 50's and 60's, but I'll never forget the first Vette I took a ride in. It was the only C4 I've even been in to this day, and let me tell you, it was not impressive. Certainly I can't speak for all C4s, but it's clear the C5 is a quantum leap.

p.s. Ryan Bell, out of honest curiosity, you're 21 right? How do you afford all those cars? I'm 21 and even with a job that pays way more than it should, between school, my apartment and my seemingly endless stream of bills, every penny I make goes right back out the freakin window.... :confused: I'm living young and fast while I can... Lightning, F355, C5? How does a guy our age manage to own them all?




[Modified by The DBK, 9:45 AM 2/15/2002]

Senna1994

Ryan,

I am with you 100%, the Mustang does have heritage as a "Pony Car" but never an out and out sports car (I.E. 2 seats). I have owned many Corvettes my last a 99 Coupe, and I believe from the C4 the Corvette became an excellent handling car (remember roadholding and handling are two different things). I own a 355 and although it is quite a bit different from the Corvette, I still respect and look forward to buying a Corvette C6, because it is a true sportscar with innovations (first american with IRS, Disc Brakes, FI, Hydroformed Rails, etc). But frankly to compare a Corvette to a Mustang is
missing the point, remember people anybody can go fast in a straightline, braking and turning are also what count.

QUIKAG

GTS,

I really hope you're talking about straight-line acceleration. In that, the new blown Cobra might be CLOSE to a stock C5. Everything else is C5 all the way, handling, braking, chassis dynamics, structure, quality, etc. I'm not scared, I say bring it, the more fast cars, the merrier. :D :cheers: :cheers:

Ryan Bell

I'm 24 actually (almost 25). If you want to talk about that stuff, just email. It wouldn't really be "on topic" in this thread. :)

dbvettez06

Ford never has got it right, sounds like a good package for the 'F' people, and for potential Camaro/Firebird new car buyers...It is sad to see the Must#^& outlive the other two :chevy As for being competetive with the Z :lol: :lol: :lol:

Pio

I just read a test for a supercharged Saleen that runs 11.70's on slicks. And, thats the SOHC motor not the DOHC. I'm not giving kuddos to the Mustang, but, 11.7's is impressive, same car ran 12.2's on street tires.

Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords, this months issue.

RandyB

Saleen isn't shy about labeling the Corvette as direct competition...

-Randy

Pio

Thats because they're more expensive :yesnod:

50thZO6

People....People....What are we talking about here?? Its just a cobra, Ford, what ever! It has never been nor will it ever be compared to a real true sports car like the Corvette! :bs