[Z06] Why I don't miss Removable Roofs, Verts and Automatics
05-11-2008, 05:27 PM
#1
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Why I don't miss Removable Roofs, Verts and Automatics
Let me preface what I am going to say by saying "each to his own." Chevrolet has done a wonderful job of giving us choices in the Corvette, and I am confident will continue to do so. If we all thought alike, we'd all be driving the same model of Corvette, same color, same options.
The following center around my own experiences, the only ones I can most effectively speak to, and thats it.
You know you hear a lot of talk along the lines of:
"If the Z06 came in a convertible, I'd buy one."
"If the Z06 came in an automatic, I'd buy one."
"If the Z06 came in an automatic with a convertible, I'd buy one."
Well you know, I have owned coupes, verts and automatics..
And don't miss a single one of them.
I don't miss the vert, or the removable top on the coupe for pretty much the same reasons.
I can't take the roof off of my house and that has never been a problem for me, why should I miss not being able to remove the roof from my car?
I can't remove it from any of my other cars.:
1. In my area of the country, on cool days, its torture driving around with the top down. You get up to speed, and the constant wind buffeting, the wind chill, make it anything but enjoyable. You may be able to drive it in the early afternoon with the top down or the roof panel off, but early morning or later evening, forget about it unless you are in the dead of summer. I don't miss it at all.
2. When I drive, I enjoy my "privacy" if you will. I get into my Z06 to block the rest of the world out, not invite it in. I want to be connected with the car, not the onlookers, the birds, the wind, etc.
When I pull up to a stop light, I don't need to have a truckload of illegal immigrants or teenagers looking over into the cockpit of my car. When I get on the highway, I don't need to be buffeted.
Nor do I sense a need for everyone to see just who it is driving it. I don't need people from the other lane of traffic trying to talk to me and ask me questions about my car, at that stoplight either. Ignore them and you are perceived as a jerk. Talk to them and the driver in the car behind you thinks you're a jerk. Hear a wisecrack or two from a lane over or two lanes over??? I don't miss that at all.
Some ****weed challenging you to a race and loudly talking $#++ in the next lane when you pull up with your top down to said light. Don't miss it at all.
My wife's hair all over her head when we get to where we are going, nope, don't miss it.
But we gotta let the top down to make the drive "fun" right??
Are we having fun yet.
3. When I get to where I am going, I don't want to have to **** around with a roof panel or with putting my top up to keep some jerk from flicking a lit cigarette or hocking a lugee onto one of my seats while parked at the mall or if I leave the car. Don't miss that worry at all.
4. On a hot day, I don't want to take a beat down from the sun with my top off, just to say that I have the top off on a sunny day. Don't miss that at all.
5. After having the experience of having to replace the convertible top on my '86 and the fitment and expense, nope, don't miss it at all.
The automatic transmission, well I can take it or leave it.
Were it a true SMG, I'd definitely take it. But the auto they are putting in these Vettes today, no thanks. Don't miss it at all.
My wife has driven all of my Vettes, this one however she just won't touch. Just no desire to drive it, "scares" her she says.
For her, I might get a Pontiac Solstice or a Miata or some other cute looking convertible which is low on power, etc. so that she can be seen in it, so that she and her friends can tool around in it, go to their book club, etc in it, on weekdays and Saturdays with their sunglasses on and their hair flowing in the wind.
But my sports car, it has to mean business. No nonsense. And after having coupes and verts..... I'll take the Z06.
The following center around my own experiences, the only ones I can most effectively speak to, and thats it.
You know you hear a lot of talk along the lines of:
"If the Z06 came in a convertible, I'd buy one."
"If the Z06 came in an automatic, I'd buy one."
"If the Z06 came in an automatic with a convertible, I'd buy one."
Well you know, I have owned coupes, verts and automatics..
And don't miss a single one of them.
I don't miss the vert, or the removable top on the coupe for pretty much the same reasons.
I can't take the roof off of my house and that has never been a problem for me, why should I miss not being able to remove the roof from my car?
I can't remove it from any of my other cars.:
1. In my area of the country, on cool days, its torture driving around with the top down. You get up to speed, and the constant wind buffeting, the wind chill, make it anything but enjoyable. You may be able to drive it in the early afternoon with the top down or the roof panel off, but early morning or later evening, forget about it unless you are in the dead of summer. I don't miss it at all.
2. When I drive, I enjoy my "privacy" if you will. I get into my Z06 to block the rest of the world out, not invite it in. I want to be connected with the car, not the onlookers, the birds, the wind, etc.
When I pull up to a stop light, I don't need to have a truckload of illegal immigrants or teenagers looking over into the cockpit of my car. When I get on the highway, I don't need to be buffeted.
Nor do I sense a need for everyone to see just who it is driving it. I don't need people from the other lane of traffic trying to talk to me and ask me questions about my car, at that stoplight either. Ignore them and you are perceived as a jerk. Talk to them and the driver in the car behind you thinks you're a jerk. Hear a wisecrack or two from a lane over or two lanes over??? I don't miss that at all.
Some ****weed challenging you to a race and loudly talking $#++ in the next lane when you pull up with your top down to said light. Don't miss it at all.
My wife's hair all over her head when we get to where we are going, nope, don't miss it.
But we gotta let the top down to make the drive "fun" right??
Are we having fun yet.
3. When I get to where I am going, I don't want to have to **** around with a roof panel or with putting my top up to keep some jerk from flicking a lit cigarette or hocking a lugee onto one of my seats while parked at the mall or if I leave the car. Don't miss that worry at all.
4. On a hot day, I don't want to take a beat down from the sun with my top off, just to say that I have the top off on a sunny day. Don't miss that at all.
5. After having the experience of having to replace the convertible top on my '86 and the fitment and expense, nope, don't miss it at all.
The automatic transmission, well I can take it or leave it.
Were it a true SMG, I'd definitely take it. But the auto they are putting in these Vettes today, no thanks. Don't miss it at all.
My wife has driven all of my Vettes, this one however she just won't touch. Just no desire to drive it, "scares" her she says.
For her, I might get a Pontiac Solstice or a Miata or some other cute looking convertible which is low on power, etc. so that she can be seen in it, so that she and her friends can tool around in it, go to their book club, etc in it, on weekdays and Saturdays with their sunglasses on and their hair flowing in the wind.
But my sports car, it has to mean business. No nonsense. And after having coupes and verts..... I'll take the Z06.
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; 05-12-2008 at 12:34 AM.
05-11-2008, 05:44 PM
#2
Melting Slicks
Don't miss 'em, either.
My family's first vette was a 98 coupe...had roof off it a few times when we got it just because it seemed neat as it was our first vette.
Then the 01 coupe I honestly don't think the roof came off that car once in 3 years of having it.
I also had a 2000 T/A with T tops. I took them off the car exactly twice in 3 years of owning the car.
Then, I had a 2002 Z28 for 2 years. I took the t tops off that car one time in the 2 years I owned it.
To each his own, though. I have a buddy that won't own a sports car if it isn't a convertible, which is why they make all the versions.
For me, if I need air, the Z06 still comes with roll down windows.
My family's first vette was a 98 coupe...had roof off it a few times when we got it just because it seemed neat as it was our first vette.
Then the 01 coupe I honestly don't think the roof came off that car once in 3 years of having it.
I also had a 2000 T/A with T tops. I took them off the car exactly twice in 3 years of owning the car.
Then, I had a 2002 Z28 for 2 years. I took the t tops off that car one time in the 2 years I owned it.
To each his own, though. I have a buddy that won't own a sports car if it isn't a convertible, which is why they make all the versions.
For me, if I need air, the Z06 still comes with roll down windows.
05-11-2008, 06:53 PM
#4
Melting Slicks
I had a 68 vert w/hardtop, never took it off.
72 w/T-Tops, might have taken them out once.
79 w/T-Tops, never took them out.
04 Convert, put the top down once.
I don't miss the open air either.
The C6 Z06 reminds me of the 67 coupes, my favorite, but with many improvemants.
72 w/T-Tops, might have taken them out once.
79 w/T-Tops, never took them out.
04 Convert, put the top down once.
I don't miss the open air either.
The C6 Z06 reminds me of the 67 coupes, my favorite, but with many improvemants.
05-11-2008, 07:09 PM
#5
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I had a 68 vert w/hardtop, never took it off.
72 w/T-Tops, might have taken them out once.
79 w/T-Tops, never took them out.
04 Convert, put the top down once.
I don't miss the open air either.
The C6 Z06 reminds me of the 67 coupes, my favorite, but with many improvemants.
72 w/T-Tops, might have taken them out once.
79 w/T-Tops, never took them out.
04 Convert, put the top down once.
I don't miss the open air either.
The C6 Z06 reminds me of the 67 coupes, my favorite, but with many improvemants.
And when I did it was like ......OK....I don't see the big deal here other than the wind beating the crap out of my ears, loose items like gasoline receipts or any other loose paper I had in the car blowing around, the sun beating the crap out of my arms and legs if I was wearing shorts and short sleeves, and no trunk space for my golf clubs if the roof panel was off or the vert top down. .
When I get to where I'm going, I'm going to have to button everything back up and when I got ready to leave I rarely if ever bothered to lower or remove the tops for the return trip. ..... So it got to where I wouldn't bother for the trip out either. And I never left it in the garage with the top off.
The 86 vert, my wife drove it a lot with the top down, indeed every time she took it out she dropped the top.
Similar with my '03 although both she, (and my daughter whenever she took it out), both got sick of removing and replacing the roof panel by themselves, so eventually they quit fooling with it.
One of the last rides I took in my '05 coupe was a trip to Maryland from Western PA roof panel off. At least thats the way it started down the PA Turnpike.
By the time I got to Breezewood, I barely could hear the radio with all of the wind buffeting. My ears were numb from all of the wind noise, road noise and noise from other vehicles, big trucks and such, and buffeting, finally let the windows up to cut down on some of it.
First gasoline fill up in Breezewood, that top went back on. Not a moment too soon. All the while I'm thinking "Riding around on the highway with the top off.....this is supposed to be fun???? My ears feel like I have been in a ******* a wind tunnel."
I have owned my Z06, it will be a year in July. Not once have I longed to remove the top on it.
Now if it had a removable top on it, I am sure that by now I would have taken it off a time or two. But I certainly do not miss it.
BTW, I have never owned a C4 Coupe, my C4 was a vert. But if I recall, the C4 required a Torx wrench to remove the top, right. I had a buddy with a 92 C4 Coupe who absolutely never removed his top.
But no, to reiterate, I don't miss a removable top on my Corvette at all.
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; 05-12-2008 at 12:38 AM.
05-11-2008, 07:33 PM
#6
Le Mans Master
05-11-2008, 08:07 PM
#7
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Thanks.
I mean reallly, all she wants is a cute little car that she can drop the top on. She doesn't care about all of that horsepower.
So why pay Corvette prices for that if dropping the top on the car is the most important thing to you, your uppermost priority, and esentially all you want?
You don't need to pay for a 436 hp Corvette in order to drop the top if thats what you want to do.
If I want to drop my top..... I can do it for a lot cheaper than that.
But if I want supercar performance capabilities, which is what the the total package of a Z06 offers in terms of straight line performance, performance in the twisties, handling, braking etc,... well then I want a Z06 or better yet a ZR1.
If I want supercar performance capabilities, well then I simply can't get that for less than $70K.. .......... But $#**...............if I just want to drop my top and have the wind blow through my hair and have everyone see my face while I'm driving past,....... well hell I can do that for $25K.
: Why buy a Vette to do that? 
Just my opinions, so y'all don't fly off the handle.
I mean reallly, all she wants is a cute little car that she can drop the top on. She doesn't care about all of that horsepower.
So why pay Corvette prices for that if dropping the top on the car is the most important thing to you, your uppermost priority, and esentially all you want?
You don't need to pay for a 436 hp Corvette in order to drop the top if thats what you want to do.
If I want to drop my top..... I can do it for a lot cheaper than that.
But if I want supercar performance capabilities, which is what the the total package of a Z06 offers in terms of straight line performance, performance in the twisties, handling, braking etc,... well then I want a Z06 or better yet a ZR1.
If I want supercar performance capabilities, well then I simply can't get that for less than $70K.. .......... But $#**...............if I just want to drop my top and have the wind blow through my hair and have everyone see my face while I'm driving past,....... well hell I can do that for $25K.
: Why buy a Vette to do that? Just my opinions, so y'all don't fly off the handle.
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; 05-11-2008 at 08:28 PM.
05-11-2008, 10:24 PM
#8
Well put, I currently have an 05 C6 coupe and very rarely remove the top for those exact reasons. I've had the top out NO MORE than 5 times since I bought it new in 2005 and I live in South Ga where the weather is almost always reasonable for top down driving.
05-11-2008, 10:25 PM
#9
Racer
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Thanks.
But if I want supercar performance capabilities, which is what the the total package of a Z06 offers in terms of straight line performance, performance in the twisties, handling, braking etc,... well then I want a Z06 or better yet a ZR1.
If I want supercar performance capabilities, well then I simply can't get that for less than $70K.. .......... But $#**...............if I just want to drop my top and have the wind blow through my hair and have everyone see my face while I'm driving past,....... well hell I can do that for $25K.: Why buy a Vette to do that?
But if I want supercar performance capabilities, which is what the the total package of a Z06 offers in terms of straight line performance, performance in the twisties, handling, braking etc,... well then I want a Z06 or better yet a ZR1.
If I want supercar performance capabilities, well then I simply can't get that for less than $70K.. .......... But $#**...............if I just want to drop my top and have the wind blow through my hair and have everyone see my face while I'm driving past,....... well hell I can do that for $25K.
: Why buy a Vette to do that? 
Well, I for one have that huge need for speed, but I didn't want a Hyabusa or a Ninja. And, sure I love the power of the Z, but the flexibilty of having a removable roof, the almost as awesome power output of the new LS3, AND the availabilty of a much better (IMHO) two tone interior option in the base model led me to the purchase of a 2008 coupe.
I believe that due to the General's use of, again, the same kind of logic as above (all high end performance vehicles should be the same; sporting manual transmissions and fixed roofs (which is BS pure and simple)) was the number one cause of the saturation that has lead to the horrific decline in Z06 prices and tons of new Z's remaining on the dealers' lots unsold. I mean, c'mon...just think about the number of Z's that would have been sold IF the General had included the removable roof and automatic options.
Surely it's not any more unreasonable to include those two options than it was for the General to include heated/memory seats and a telescoping steering wheel in what was designed to be a street legal race car. C'mon...it's not a Cadillac, but look how many 50 and 60 year olds have to have those options on their Z!...lol
Good post though....
05-11-2008, 10:39 PM
#10
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Actually that is not correct. See, using only your same simple logic displayed above, why would anyone blow $70 to $80K on a silly Corvette Z06 when a measly $15K would get you the latest and greatest Suzuki Hyabusa which would allow the said frugal speed enthusiast to easily blow away your Z06 (or even a ZR1 for that matter) in straight line performance, handling, braking, fuel ecomony, etc. I mean, if you really want handling AND speed, why would you even think of looking at a car?!?!?
Besides, you can't compare bikes to cars.
Well, I for one have that huge need for speed, but I didn't want a Hyabusa or a Ninja. And, sure I love the power of the Z, but the flexibilty of having a removable roof, the almost as awesome power output of the new LS3, AND the availabilty of a much better (IMHO) two tone interior option in the base model led me to the purchase of a 2008 coupe.
I believe that due to the General's use of, again, the same kind of logic as above (all high end performance vehicles should be the same; sporting manual transmissions and fixed roofs (which is BS pure and simple)) was the number one cause of the saturation that has lead to the horrific decline in Z06 prices and tons of new Z's remaining on the dealers' lots unsold. I mean, c'mon...just think about the number of Z's that would have been sold IF the General had included the removable roof and automatic options.
I believe that due to the General's use of, again, the same kind of logic as above (all high end performance vehicles should be the same; sporting manual transmissions and fixed roofs (which is BS pure and simple)) was the number one cause of the saturation that has lead to the horrific decline in Z06 prices and tons of new Z's remaining on the dealers' lots unsold. I mean, c'mon...just think about the number of Z's that would have been sold IF the General had included the removable roof and automatic options.
An automatic behind that 427 surely would have hurt gas mileage numbers they were shooting for.
Look, if they were to stick automatic transmissions into every unsold Z06 right now, how many of the unsold ones would sell?
Those same people kicking Z06 tires right now, (read, can't afford) would still come up with excuses and rationalizations for not buying, ie you can't tell the difference on the street during normal driving, you can't use the power on the street, there is not enough of a difference between it and the LS3, and other such nonsense. Even if it had an automatic transmission in it.
Put that automatic transmission into all of those unsold Z06s, cut the roofs out of them and turn them into automatic verts, and then the UPCHARGE for cutting the top out of it and turning it into a vert, and how many of those fence sitting tire kickers, who ain't buying now, mind you, buy at an even higher price point???
The price of the Z06, just like the price of the Viper is what is resulting in a lack of sales, especially in this economy. These cars are out of the price range of the average Joe. The C5 Z06 was attainable to anyone who could buy a C5 vert.
The C6 Z06 with its exotic materials, 427 engine, dry sump and laundry list of other improvements over the base C6, put it out of reach, pricewise, for the typical Corvette purchaser.
Indeed when it first came out, a lot of C5 Z06 owners were bitching because they knew that they would not be able to afford it
Thats where Chevy made their "mistake" if they made one. In over estimating the number of folks who would actually be able to pay 70k+ for a Chevy. (Thats why the future looks bleak for the ZR1)
That $70-$90K price range......is a no mans land. Just ask Dodge. Now once you get above that well then its a different market altogether.
Surely it's not any more unreasonable to include those two options than it was for the General to include heated/memory seats and a telescoping steering wheel in what was designed to be a street legal race car. C'mon...it's not a Cadillac, but look how many 50 and 60 year olds have to have those options on their Z!...lol
Good post though....
Good post though....
Well look no further than the Viper for an example of a performance car with a dearth of amenities which also sits on dealer lots unsold or with significant markdown in MSRP. A lot of this is the economy which has been in decline for a while now. People have less disposable income to spend on toys.
And they make way fewer Vipers than Z06s, plus the top will come off a Viper too. But Dodge has always struggled with sales of the Viper.
American consumers want their comfort items. American manufacturers, and yes Japanese and European manufacturers know that. Hence the bells and whistles like heated seats and such.
However there are a number of Porsches, Ferraris, Astons which you cannot take the top off of and it does not seem to be a problem until we get to the Z06.
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; 05-12-2008 at 12:30 AM.
05-11-2008, 11:09 PM
#11
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Yeah, very* true...bikes are way too dangerous for me.
And no doubt it would be difficult for the General to compensate for the ridgity lost with the removable roof or developing an auto that could take the Z's extra stresses.*
But I for one would have bought one if it had a removable roof.* Don't need the auto option though...again, it's not a Caddy!*
However, I do love taking the roof off my coupe so I can get plenty of stares all the while destroying my hair do and the extra 70 HP of the Z wasn't enough to compensate not having the removable roof.
Now...the ZR1 and it's 200 HP increase over my car is a different story. I'll get over not having the roof if it means I can get my hands on one once they've been out a while and their prices fall.
In the mean time, let me see how much I do use the roof option on my Coupe this summer and then get back with you. If I don't (or my GF gives me to much grief for messin up her hair I'll trade it for a Z).
And no doubt it would be difficult for the General to compensate for the ridgity lost with the removable roof or developing an auto that could take the Z's extra stresses.*
But I for one would have bought one if it had a removable roof.* Don't need the auto option though...again, it's not a Caddy!*
However, I do love taking the roof off my coupe so I can get plenty of stares all the while destroying my hair do and the extra 70 HP of the Z wasn't enough to compensate not having the removable roof.
Now...the ZR1 and it's 200 HP increase over my car is a different story. I'll get over not having the roof if it means I can get my hands on one once they've been out a while and their prices fall.
In the mean time, let me see how much I do use the roof option on my Coupe this summer and then get back with you. If I don't (or my GF gives me to much grief for messin up her hair I'll trade it for a Z).
05-11-2008, 11:37 PM
#12
I'm more of a purist when it comes to design. The designers made the car as a coupe; not as a convertible. The lines of a C2 are fantastic. C3s have the Mako look that the designers were after. I can't imagine a designer sitting there and saying " This car would sure look better as a convertible."
A Miata was designed as a convertible and it shows. Clean, purposeful.
I think it will always be Corvette coupes for me.
A Miata was designed as a convertible and it shows. Clean, purposeful.
I think it will always be Corvette coupes for me.
05-11-2008, 11:43 PM
#13
Burning Brakes
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quicksilver, your logic scares me(over and over again )....not sure how you draw the conclusion that people that buy an LS3 car (coupe, vert) can not afford to by a Z06, or as you said they are "tire kickers, read can't afford!"
to me anyone that does not race their car and buys an LS3/LS2 vs LS7 car (for whatever reason) makes the right financial decision, independent if they can afford the Z or not.
Bottom line, I bet you 10% of the Z owners use the car to their potential, the rest are "keeping up with the Jones'" until they get bored with it and damp it (or attempt to) for a big $ loss...
)....not sure how you draw the conclusion that people that buy an LS3 car (coupe, vert) can not afford to by a Z06, or as you said they are "tire kickers, read can't afford!"to me anyone that does not race their car and buys an LS3/LS2 vs LS7 car (for whatever reason) makes the right financial decision, independent if they can afford the Z or not.
Bottom line, I bet you 10% of the Z owners use the car to their potential, the rest are "keeping up with the Jones'" until they get bored with it and damp it (or attempt to) for a big $ loss...
05-12-2008, 12:02 AM
#15
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Yesterday, I posted that a stock Z06 had run a 10.9 quarter mile time, and you responded: "Yeah, but thats not the norm".
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...post1565399622
Well who said it was?
Now you come in here saying that I have drawn a conclusion "that people that buy an LS3 car (coupe, vert) can not afford to by a Z06".
I never said or implied anything of the sort.
So now which one of you would be right?
You see how it works?
I have been here for a while yanniz. And this forum is not representative of the typical Corvette owner.
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; 05-12-2008 at 12:19 AM.
05-12-2008, 06:31 AM
#17
Team Owner
To each his own.
If it were me, I would like a removable hard top for those nice days of cruising. At least you have the option.
Why not get rid of your window motors while you are at it and save a few pounds.
If it were me, I would like a removable hard top for those nice days of cruising. At least you have the option.
Why not get rid of your window motors while you are at it and save a few pounds.
05-12-2008, 07:45 AM
#18
Safety Car
I'm with the pro-auto/vert folks on this one.
The car was not "designed as" a coupe. If it was, it wouldn't have a separate bolt-in roof panel. It has one because the body is shared with a car that was designed as a targa.
The aluminum frame is the single dumbest feature of the car. Yeah, it's lighter. In all other respects it's a liability. My guess is GM's motivation for including it had little to do with performance improvement and everything to do with wanting a low-volume production testbed for a new technology, plus some brochure bling for those who know more about buzzwords than engineering. The steel frame is stiffer and will handle better. Note that they used the steel frame in the even more "pure" race cars. Let me put this question: if the aluminum frame was a $500 option on the Z06, how many would be sold? Very few, I'd wager. If weight's so important why aren't most of the cars sold as 1LZs?
A similar story could be told about the Ti connecting rods.
Offering targa and convertible versions of the Z06 would require essentially zero new parts or engineering. Use the steel frame and the other needed parts from the normal C6 and you're done. They might have to do some new cert tests, but other than that it's free. This is why I don't understand why they don't do this. They are leaving money laying on the table. Sales are so wonderful that they can afford to turn some customers away?
The same goes for not offering certain colors on the Z06. This is just dumb. Customers are standing there with money in their hand, wanting to buy something you could easily sell. But you won't sell it to them "just because". Dumb.
As to automatics, there is a better case for no-go there. That one would take some fairly extensive engineering and certification. OTOH, auto would likely soon make up 40% or so (my guess) of Z06 production so that would have to be a lot of additional sales. True, some folks will "settle" for an M6 if they want a Z06, but others either will not or cannot.
Back in the 60s, GM used to make certain ultra-performance options difficult to buy. But there were good reasons then: warranty issues, and streetability issues. Those reasons don't apply to the targa/vert Z06. GM, do you REALLY think that whatever extra "image" the supposed "purity" of the Z06 gains from being coupe-only generates enough ADDITIONAL sales as to offset the lost sales from disappointed must-have targa/Z06 customers? If so, I think you're kidding yourselves.
My prediction? Look for at least a targa, and maybe a vert Z06 before all is said and done. Once the ZR1 is the King that sort of opens things up for the Z06. I've got an '09 on order, and figure this might well be the last C6 I ever buy, but a targa Z06 would likely get me to pull the trigger one more time. GM, you listening?
Oh, and let me put one more question: if the targa was a $500 option on the Z06, do you think they would sell? Me, I'd guess penetration at 80% or better. Heck, they get almost that for the Nav unit. On the other hand, if the fixed top was a no-cost option on a targa car, how well would they well? 10% at best, my guess. There is very little demand for a fixed-roof per se, imo.
The car was not "designed as" a coupe. If it was, it wouldn't have a separate bolt-in roof panel. It has one because the body is shared with a car that was designed as a targa.
The aluminum frame is the single dumbest feature of the car. Yeah, it's lighter. In all other respects it's a liability. My guess is GM's motivation for including it had little to do with performance improvement and everything to do with wanting a low-volume production testbed for a new technology, plus some brochure bling for those who know more about buzzwords than engineering. The steel frame is stiffer and will handle better. Note that they used the steel frame in the even more "pure" race cars. Let me put this question: if the aluminum frame was a $500 option on the Z06, how many would be sold? Very few, I'd wager. If weight's so important why aren't most of the cars sold as 1LZs?
A similar story could be told about the Ti connecting rods.
Offering targa and convertible versions of the Z06 would require essentially zero new parts or engineering. Use the steel frame and the other needed parts from the normal C6 and you're done. They might have to do some new cert tests, but other than that it's free. This is why I don't understand why they don't do this. They are leaving money laying on the table. Sales are so wonderful that they can afford to turn some customers away?
The same goes for not offering certain colors on the Z06. This is just dumb. Customers are standing there with money in their hand, wanting to buy something you could easily sell. But you won't sell it to them "just because". Dumb.
As to automatics, there is a better case for no-go there. That one would take some fairly extensive engineering and certification. OTOH, auto would likely soon make up 40% or so (my guess) of Z06 production so that would have to be a lot of additional sales. True, some folks will "settle" for an M6 if they want a Z06, but others either will not or cannot.
Back in the 60s, GM used to make certain ultra-performance options difficult to buy. But there were good reasons then: warranty issues, and streetability issues. Those reasons don't apply to the targa/vert Z06. GM, do you REALLY think that whatever extra "image" the supposed "purity" of the Z06 gains from being coupe-only generates enough ADDITIONAL sales as to offset the lost sales from disappointed must-have targa/Z06 customers? If so, I think you're kidding yourselves.
My prediction? Look for at least a targa, and maybe a vert Z06 before all is said and done. Once the ZR1 is the King that sort of opens things up for the Z06. I've got an '09 on order, and figure this might well be the last C6 I ever buy, but a targa Z06 would likely get me to pull the trigger one more time. GM, you listening?
Oh, and let me put one more question: if the targa was a $500 option on the Z06, do you think they would sell? Me, I'd guess penetration at 80% or better. Heck, they get almost that for the Nav unit. On the other hand, if the fixed top was a no-cost option on a targa car, how well would they well? 10% at best, my guess. There is very little demand for a fixed-roof per se, imo.
Last edited by Gannet; 05-12-2008 at 07:54 AM.
05-12-2008, 08:29 AM
#19
Racer
Member Since: Jan 2008
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I'm with the pro-auto/vert folks on this one.
The car was not "designed as" a coupe. If it was, it wouldn't have a separate bolt-in roof panel. It has one because the body is shared with a car that was designed as a targa.
The aluminum frame is the single dumbest feature of the car. Yeah, it's lighter. In all other respects it's a liability. My guess is GM's motivation for including it had little to do with performance improvement and everything to do with wanting a low-volume production testbed for a new technology, plus some brochure bling for those who know more about buzzwords than engineering. The steel frame is stiffer and will handle better. Note that they used the steel frame in the even more "pure" race cars. Let me put this question: if the aluminum frame was a $500 option on the Z06, how many would be sold? Very few, I'd wager. If weight's so important why aren't most of the cars sold as 1LZs?
A similar story could be told about the Ti connecting rods.
Offering targa and convertible versions of the Z06 would require essentially zero new parts or engineering. Use the steel frame and the other needed parts from the normal C6 and you're done. They might have to do some new cert tests, but other than that it's free. This is why I don't understand why they don't do this. They are leaving money laying on the table. Sales are so wonderful that they can afford to turn some customers away?
The same goes for not offering certain colors on the Z06. This is just dumb. Customers are standing there with money in their hand, wanting to buy something you could easily sell. But you won't sell it to them "just because". Dumb.
As to automatics, there is a better case for no-go there. That one would take some fairly extensive engineering and certification. OTOH, auto would likely soon make up 40% or so (my guess) of Z06 production so that would have to be a lot of additional sales. True, some folks will "settle" for an M6 if they want a Z06, but others either will not or cannot.
Back in the 60s, GM used to make certain ultra-performance options difficult to buy. But there were good reasons then: warranty issues, and streetability issues. Those reasons don't apply to the targa/vert Z06. GM, do you REALLY think that whatever extra "image" the supposed "purity" of the Z06 gains from being coupe-only generates enough ADDITIONAL sales as to offset the lost sales from disappointed must-have targa/Z06 customers? If so, I think you're kidding yourselves.
My prediction? Look for at least a targa, and maybe a vert Z06 before all is said and done. Once the ZR1 is the King that sort of opens things up for the Z06. I've got an '09 on order, and figure this might well be the last C6 I ever buy, but a targa Z06 would likely get me to pull the trigger one more time. GM, you listening?
Oh, and let me put one more question: if the targa was a $500 option on the Z06, do you think they would sell? Me, I'd guess penetration at 80% or better. Heck, they get almost that for the Nav unit. On the other hand, if the fixed top was a no-cost option on a targa car, how well would they well? 10% at best, my guess. There is very little demand for a fixed-roof per se, imo.
The car was not "designed as" a coupe. If it was, it wouldn't have a separate bolt-in roof panel. It has one because the body is shared with a car that was designed as a targa.
The aluminum frame is the single dumbest feature of the car. Yeah, it's lighter. In all other respects it's a liability. My guess is GM's motivation for including it had little to do with performance improvement and everything to do with wanting a low-volume production testbed for a new technology, plus some brochure bling for those who know more about buzzwords than engineering. The steel frame is stiffer and will handle better. Note that they used the steel frame in the even more "pure" race cars. Let me put this question: if the aluminum frame was a $500 option on the Z06, how many would be sold? Very few, I'd wager. If weight's so important why aren't most of the cars sold as 1LZs?
A similar story could be told about the Ti connecting rods.
Offering targa and convertible versions of the Z06 would require essentially zero new parts or engineering. Use the steel frame and the other needed parts from the normal C6 and you're done. They might have to do some new cert tests, but other than that it's free. This is why I don't understand why they don't do this. They are leaving money laying on the table. Sales are so wonderful that they can afford to turn some customers away?
The same goes for not offering certain colors on the Z06. This is just dumb. Customers are standing there with money in their hand, wanting to buy something you could easily sell. But you won't sell it to them "just because". Dumb.
As to automatics, there is a better case for no-go there. That one would take some fairly extensive engineering and certification. OTOH, auto would likely soon make up 40% or so (my guess) of Z06 production so that would have to be a lot of additional sales. True, some folks will "settle" for an M6 if they want a Z06, but others either will not or cannot.
Back in the 60s, GM used to make certain ultra-performance options difficult to buy. But there were good reasons then: warranty issues, and streetability issues. Those reasons don't apply to the targa/vert Z06. GM, do you REALLY think that whatever extra "image" the supposed "purity" of the Z06 gains from being coupe-only generates enough ADDITIONAL sales as to offset the lost sales from disappointed must-have targa/Z06 customers? If so, I think you're kidding yourselves.
My prediction? Look for at least a targa, and maybe a vert Z06 before all is said and done. Once the ZR1 is the King that sort of opens things up for the Z06. I've got an '09 on order, and figure this might well be the last C6 I ever buy, but a targa Z06 would likely get me to pull the trigger one more time. GM, you listening?
Oh, and let me put one more question: if the targa was a $500 option on the Z06, do you think they would sell? Me, I'd guess penetration at 80% or better. Heck, they get almost that for the Nav unit. On the other hand, if the fixed top was a no-cost option on a targa car, how well would they well? 10% at best, my guess. There is very little demand for a fixed-roof per se, imo.
Wow...extremely well put. Couldn't have said it better myself. GM is no doubt leaving many Z06 sales unanswered on the table (and caused the current Z06 market saturation) by being unflexible on some extremely popular options.
05-12-2008, 08:47 AM
#20
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I'm with the pro-auto/vert folks on this one.
The car was not "designed as" a coupe. If it was, it wouldn't have a separate bolt-in roof panel. It has one because the body is shared with a car that was designed as a targa.
The aluminum frame is the single dumbest feature of the car. Yeah, it's lighter. In all other respects it's a liability. My guess is GM's motivation for including it had little to do with performance improvement and everything to do with wanting a low-volume production testbed for a new technology, plus some brochure bling for those who know more about buzzwords than engineering. The steel frame is stiffer and will handle better. Note that they used the steel frame in the even more "pure" race cars. Let me put this question: if the aluminum frame was a $500 option on the Z06, how many would be sold? Very few, I'd wager. If weight's so important why aren't most of the cars sold as 1LZs?
A similar story could be told about the Ti connecting rods.
Offering targa and convertible versions of the Z06 would require essentially zero new parts or engineering. Use the steel frame and the other needed parts from the normal C6 and you're done. They might have to do some new cert tests, but other than that it's free. This is why I don't understand why they don't do this. They are leaving money laying on the table. Sales are so wonderful that they can afford to turn some customers away?
The same goes for not offering certain colors on the Z06. This is just dumb. Customers are standing there with money in their hand, wanting to buy something you could easily sell. But you won't sell it to them "just because". Dumb.
As to automatics, there is a better case for no-go there. That one would take some fairly extensive engineering and certification. OTOH, auto would likely soon make up 40% or so (my guess) of Z06 production so that would have to be a lot of additional sales. True, some folks will "settle" for an M6 if they want a Z06, but others either will not or cannot.
Back in the 60s, GM used to make certain ultra-performance options difficult to buy. But there were good reasons then: warranty issues, and streetability issues. Those reasons don't apply to the targa/vert Z06. GM, do you REALLY think that whatever extra "image" the supposed "purity" of the Z06 gains from being coupe-only generates enough ADDITIONAL sales as to offset the lost sales from disappointed must-have targa/Z06 customers? If so, I think you're kidding yourselves.
My prediction? Look for at least a targa, and maybe a vert Z06 before all is said and done. Once the ZR1 is the King that sort of opens things up for the Z06. I've got an '09 on order, and figure this might well be the last C6 I ever buy, but a targa Z06 would likely get me to pull the trigger one more time. GM, you listening?
Oh, and let me put one more question: if the targa was a $500 option on the Z06, do you think they would sell? Me, I'd guess penetration at 80% or better. Heck, they get almost that for the Nav unit. On the other hand, if the fixed top was a no-cost option on a targa car, how well would they well? 10% at best, my guess. There is very little demand for a fixed-roof per se, imo.
The car was not "designed as" a coupe. If it was, it wouldn't have a separate bolt-in roof panel. It has one because the body is shared with a car that was designed as a targa.
The aluminum frame is the single dumbest feature of the car. Yeah, it's lighter. In all other respects it's a liability. My guess is GM's motivation for including it had little to do with performance improvement and everything to do with wanting a low-volume production testbed for a new technology, plus some brochure bling for those who know more about buzzwords than engineering. The steel frame is stiffer and will handle better. Note that they used the steel frame in the even more "pure" race cars. Let me put this question: if the aluminum frame was a $500 option on the Z06, how many would be sold? Very few, I'd wager. If weight's so important why aren't most of the cars sold as 1LZs?
A similar story could be told about the Ti connecting rods.
Offering targa and convertible versions of the Z06 would require essentially zero new parts or engineering. Use the steel frame and the other needed parts from the normal C6 and you're done. They might have to do some new cert tests, but other than that it's free. This is why I don't understand why they don't do this. They are leaving money laying on the table. Sales are so wonderful that they can afford to turn some customers away?
The same goes for not offering certain colors on the Z06. This is just dumb. Customers are standing there with money in their hand, wanting to buy something you could easily sell. But you won't sell it to them "just because". Dumb.
As to automatics, there is a better case for no-go there. That one would take some fairly extensive engineering and certification. OTOH, auto would likely soon make up 40% or so (my guess) of Z06 production so that would have to be a lot of additional sales. True, some folks will "settle" for an M6 if they want a Z06, but others either will not or cannot.
Back in the 60s, GM used to make certain ultra-performance options difficult to buy. But there were good reasons then: warranty issues, and streetability issues. Those reasons don't apply to the targa/vert Z06. GM, do you REALLY think that whatever extra "image" the supposed "purity" of the Z06 gains from being coupe-only generates enough ADDITIONAL sales as to offset the lost sales from disappointed must-have targa/Z06 customers? If so, I think you're kidding yourselves.
My prediction? Look for at least a targa, and maybe a vert Z06 before all is said and done. Once the ZR1 is the King that sort of opens things up for the Z06. I've got an '09 on order, and figure this might well be the last C6 I ever buy, but a targa Z06 would likely get me to pull the trigger one more time. GM, you listening?
Oh, and let me put one more question: if the targa was a $500 option on the Z06, do you think they would sell? Me, I'd guess penetration at 80% or better. Heck, they get almost that for the Nav unit. On the other hand, if the fixed top was a no-cost option on a targa car, how well would they well? 10% at best, my guess. There is very little demand for a fixed-roof per se, imo.
But in the thread I link to below, it's benefits are very well explained by forum member herman2P, who lists his credentials as BS, MS, and Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering with 11 years of analyzing the dynamics of mechanical systems attached to frames ( mostly aluminum frames).
Someone else tried to argue with him about the benefits of the aluminum frame and he explained them well.
Its good and informative reading starting here and throughout the rest of the thread.
BTW, what would a Z06 weigh if it had a steel frame?
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...2011333&page=2