Tonycan

If that's the case, it seems GM needs to reprogram the wear sensors to have the alert come on before the rivets are exposed to the rotors. Earlier warning, so to speak. It doesn't do much good the way it is currently programmed. Same problem could occur during normal driving, albeit over a longer period of time.

911/Q45

I had real good luck with the Pagid Yellow compound on my Porsche and no problems with street use cold.

jvp

It has nothing to do with programming, per se. It has to do with how thick the sensors are compared with how big the rivets in the pads are. The sensors work, literally, by contact with the rotor. When the sensor comes in contact with the rotor, a circuit is completed and the warning pops up on the DIC. There's no way to program that differently. You need a thicker sensor (or smaller rivets... or no rivets which would be better).

jas

jvp

Did you drive these in CA? If so, your definition of "cold" and ours here in VA is a bit different.

jas

Tonycan

Well,then GM needs to think about a thicker sensor or smaller rivets---or whatever it takes to get the sensor to give the warning earlier. Potentially, this could result in a catastrophic failure at high speed with the rotor exploding. Your experience serves as a warning to all who drive at speed. In racing, a driver is responsible for his vehicle. In this case, however, it would seem we, as owners, are depending on what is basically a warning sensor with no credibility whatsoever.

It will be interesting to see if your rotor is replace under warranty, although I would consider this in additiionto be a safety issue. In other words, when does GM recommend owners change pads? When the light comes on, as currently specified. Or? The ball should be in their court, not ours.

Please keep us posted.

jamie furman

For now all track duty for the GT2, I will use the ZR1 for the street mostly and a couple track days so it will keep the ceramic setup on it.

QUIKAG

That was my whole point. If GM didn't program the sensors correctly to give ample warning before rotor damage, that's not my problem and I will get new rotors. Part of my $100k+ Vette purchase should not involve me pulling the wheels and visually inspecting the pads because the sensors don't work properly.


Please keep us posted.[/QUOTE]

seamus2154

[/QUOTE] I agree completely but the brakes and clutch are considered wear items and if this happens to you later rather than sooner It will likely be a battle to get warrantied. The guys tracking their cars are accelerating this issue and will be able to warranty this due mileage and being newer but if this happens to us later on in ownership we will not be afforded the same warranty coverage I suspect. This is why GM plays the #'s game and it's cheaper just warranty the few guys now and we take it in the *** later on. They know the majority of guys will not track their cars and have this issue. I wanted these brakes so as not to have to change out pads and rotors for the track. I am now disappointed to hear the low mileage guys are getting w/ the pads. Now I have to pull my pads to check them because I have to fear the sensors are below the rivets??!!! So if I'm 2-4 years in and I eat a rotor because of this design flaw I'm paying for the rotor GM????? So happy I upgraded to these brakes.....

jvp

Well, good luck with that line of attack. Personally, I'd prefer to do the whole preventative maintenance thing, now that I know better. It'll save me any future hassle with my car because the rotors may have gotten a little munched.

It isn't clear right now that the rivets are hard enough to do damage to the rotors. They may not be. Point of interest: if someone were to actually turn these rotors (which I'd NEVER suggest doing), they'd need a diamond bit for their lathe. The material these suckers are made of is very tough. So it's possible that the rivets may not be of any concern. I'm not enough of a materials person to know.

I'm guessing most of us here aren't, in fact. My prior warning probably should have included my uncertainty about the damage potential from the rivets. I don't like the risk, personally. Until I'm told otherwise, I'm going to treat the pad sensor as a wasted piece of hardware and check my pads myself. It's easy to do.

Bear in mind I have an excellent Corvette tech. Beyond fabulous. I don't know what kind of service you get at your respective dealerships, but I wouldn't be too surprised if you ran into a big of a stone wall trying to get munched rotors replaced under warranty.

jas

Tonycan

It seems to me that the bottom line here is you cooked the rotor before the warning light came on---and that's just not right. It is still an engineering/design problem that should be addressed or, at the very least, looked into by GM. They then should inform owners of their findings and say either it's not a problem or provide further guidance to owners in the way of a fix or GM-paid-for inspection recommendations.

Since you have a good tech, you may want to have him forward the information of your failure to GM and seek their guidance. At least that would get the issue into their system.

The warranty is a small issue here, far outweighed by safety. When I was racing my Radical I had to have a support crew. There was no way I would race in a car maintained by me.

In the meantime, it's probably worthwhile to have pre-and post-track inspections done by a tech, which I would do anyway.

range96

There is absolutely nothing factual about your assumption. At least you recognize your mechanical shortcoming and leave the maintenance of your Radical to the experts.

No rotors (steel or carbon ceramic) will come out good once the pad material is gone.

As I pointed out before and witnessed by JVP the sensors are not enough of a warning (too late) under severe conditions (track use). It is perfectly fine for street use (not as much tapering of the pads and much less heat). But I'm not sure you'll understand since you're not mechanically inclined.

PaintballaXX

Why are you so combative in this post? He has a valid opinion on this. If the tapering is an issue then maybe the sensors should be placed in the higher wear zone.

range96

His opinion is not valid and uses it to attack GM engineering. BTW, I'm not associated with them. If you reread his post you'll see it. I was a little strong with my language, but I wouldn't call it combative.

I have seen many steel rotors with big grooves, cracked rotors after track use, should we all demand a safety recall by GM for them?

jvp

That actually isn't physically possible given the shape of the calipers. The only thing GM or Brembo could do is make the pad sensors thicker to try and cause the warning earlier.

For what it's worth, I swapped the front pads out Thursday night, and both sets are fine. They're worn fairly equally, and are a tiny bit thicker than the wear sensors. But I felt it necessary and smart to just swap them anyway.

jas

Tonycan

Perhaps the only thing factual about my statement is my mechanical shortcomings, which I readily admit. Note I wasn't trying to be technical. I'll leave that to you guys. I was just saying what happened to JVP's rotor could have possibly been avoided if the system worked as planned. That's all.

And I would add the only thing factual in your statement is, as you pointed out..."the sensors are not enough of a warning (too late) under severe conditions (track use). It is perfectly fine for street use (not much tapering of the pads and much lesst heat." I think I was trying to say the same thing you said in the first part of your statement.

Based on your statement, I think GM should hire you to write the brake section of the owners manual. It would certainly be more helpful to us mechanically disadvantaged owners.

Tonycan

range96

I don't think GM would hire me as a technical writer. I would tell it like it is without the marketing hype.

People who track their cars will find the "shortcomings" in all components that will never surface under street use.

If I lived close to Spring Mountain I would have a Radical (and a membership). I was very impressed by them.

range96

In addition to a revised wear sensor, I would like some thicker pads as well. I was (slightly) disappointed the first time I saw how thin the new pads are. It would mean a redesign of the brake caliper, caliper mounting hardware, possibly the uprights and possibly different offset wheels, then possibly a different wheel house liner, different fender, etc. You change 1 little thing and that leads to another, then another...

I've seen thicker pads on Mercedes (even Chrysler) brakes, why can we have them?

I guess for street use it is adequate. For racing they just put a new one in whenever it drops below 50%.

Tonycan

Now that the brake---and comment---temperatures have dropped to a reasonable level, let me just say I appreciate all opinions on this subject. We are all just trying to be safe and get the most out of the way we use these marvelous cars. When one of us has a problem with their car, it potentially can affect other vehicles. We all have different levels of driving and mechanical abilities(and those of you with greater abilities help those of us who are mechanically-challenged).

In this matter, I think we all agree that the sensor should come on earlier. Now that we know it doesn't, thanks to JVP, those of us who drive their cars hard on the track will be watching it more closely.

Hopefully, someone at GM will become aware of this issue and address
it. Exchange of information with real-world experience--and suggested solutions--is what this forum is about.

Re the Radical. I raced a Radical 1000 (single seat) in SCCA D-Sport for a number of years in the early 2000s. (out of date now--me and the car). I also owned a Radical SR3 (two-seat) for awhile. Once I got a Radical, just about everything else I owned and drove on the track
(430, Gallardo, Z06, Viper) was like a sled. that's why I decided to race. I still drive street cars on the track, but only at 7/8 tenths. Without the safety equipment and knowing its a street car, anything harder for me would require a purpose-built race or track car. I like to drive home in the same car I drove to the track.

They have what's called the Radical Loop at SM. For those of you who take the ZR1 Course, if you have the time and resources, I would highly recommend some laps in the Radical. You'll go home a changed person.

thebishman

I have been reading alot about CCM brakes lately as I'm thinking of getting one of two cars that have them standard; the ZR1 being one of them. Here's what seems to be great advice:

Always bed the pads and rotors in prior to any advanced driving if you haven't already done so;

Always run your first lap somewhat restrained so that the CCMs can come up to temp;

Always run at least one 'cool down' lap after your run session without using the brakes hardly at all if possible;

Always check the condition of your pads and rotors prior to heading to the track;

If you notice any tapering on a pad switch it from it's present interior to exterior, (or vice versa), position on the rotor;

This may seem somewhat controversial, but if you want to avoid any issues of potentially damaging the CCM rotor, think about replacing any pad below 50% of its thickness.

I'm not sure if the ZR1 already has rear brake ducts, but getting more air to the rotors/calipers to the rear brake area really keeps the temps down;

Lastly, when you're comfortable doing it, turn off all driver assist devices when on the road course. The rear brakes take a thrashing trying to keep the car 'stable' even when many of these devices are set to their least intrusive setting.

CCMs are incredible, but you do have to take care of them. A single set of CCMs driven only on the street will probably last the life of the car unless they're damaged; i.e. the rotor itself won't wear out. Furthermore, IF you don't damage a rotor from debris or neglect, they will also last a very long time even with pretty extensive track usage as long as you follow the advice above; just look at the SM cars and they 'live' on the track 100% of the time. Lastly, we should be incredibly thankfull that GM doesn't charge the same to replace a CCM rotor as Porsche or Ferrari do.

Bish